Observer vs Observed

[Heart]

Originally Posted by davidsun

My words are not 'directed' to ALL, however.

Explanatory analogy: For many, just saying that an apple falls downward because of 'gravity' or that 'gravity' explains what is called 'gravitational attraction' is sufficient to satisfy their 'sense' of 'meaning'. Those who are more curious about why and how elements of the universe function as they do and who have the capacity process more complex explnations prefer to understand things in terms of what's addressed by Einstein's Theories of Relate-ivity. And then there's this pertaining to 'gravity' and all other manifestations of the Force including 'you' and 'me' , from my book:

The potentially liberating and amendatory truth ... is that every body in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of ‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by custom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by misusage, I generally refer to it alter*natively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, it is the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within each and everyone. (Though the full import of this cause of all causes may yet escape you, the following review and analysis of our catalog of scientific knowledge should at least make its fundamental character obvious.)

Even the simplest cases of what’s called gravitational attraction provide perfect illustration, if viewed without prejudice. Bodies of matter-energy must move themselves, for nothing really pushes or pulls them one towards the other. And they must perceive both presence and relative location, else they could not attempt to move as they do, with an acceleration proportionate to the mass and proximity and in the direction of coexisting others.

Electromagnetic and nuclear interactions, where repulsion occurs as well, are additionally revealing. Ongoing scientific investigation has led us to understand the fact that sense perceptions are basically ‘gross’ acknowledgments, and that everything is fundamentally a wave-form and nothing is actually solid at core. So, besides there being no substantive means to constitutionally link those bodies which form conglomerates, there is no real ‘boundary’ that so‑called objects bump into when they apparently bounce off one another. The only inference this permits, if one has enough courage and faith in Life not to invent extrinsic agency as a false postulate, is that the movements that bodies make and the stations they take result from the impulses and choices of discerning, autogenic ‘interiors’.

The direction and purpose of such inherent power and intentionality can be deduced from the cumulation and trend of results which have so far occurred. Progressively, the creative essence of Being has conspired to form an array of what, because of our material orientation, we’ve called ‘sub-atomic particles’; these have interacted and engaged in such ways as to produce ‘electrons’, ‘protons’ and ‘neutrons’ which, in turn, have combined to create the various ‘atoms’ and ‘molecules’ we have become familiar with; and these, through more concerted effort, have coalesced into cellular and multi-cellular units, in stages, generating ever more complex [!] aggregations of body, mind and spirit—the whole hierarchy and procession we know as Life.

In ascending sequence, with prior developments integrated and built upon, ‘bodies’ have become more coordinated, ‘spirits’ more potent, ‘minds’ more perceptive, resident Intelligence more designful and adept. Even what some call ‘simple’ single-celled organisms are architectural masters capable of cognizing, culling and compiling environmental ingredients so as to reproduce themselves and further their particular line of development. Each succeeding level of integration further demonstrates the aim of the impetus inherent within all being—that is, to seek and establish cooperative affiliation with suitable others in order to enhance creativity and increase the degree of intelligent actualization.

Part = us
Whole = The all-that-is

In simple terms.....

We try to understand the ‘whole’ from the position of the ‘part’ yet the ‘part’ is not the ‘whole’ so all we can do is merely conclude, theorize create dogmas to satisfy the intelligent being we call us, just as the greater intelligence is understood as ‘universally present’ it is known…simply, as a presence

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Then why did he use imprecise words when him and I where having a discussion about things? Are you on this thread just to be on his side? I noticed that about a couple of other members on this thread too, of course I am not talking about r6, still_waters, heart, davidsun, etc they know who they are. I do apologize if some or all are realy a coincidence, but I doubt it.

A sage talks, a dog attacks.

Whose fault is that?

Jl

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by janielee

A sage talks, a dog attacks.

Whose fault is that?

Jl

Hello Justasimpleguy

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Justasimpleguy, please tell us about your belief/path of individuality is an illusion

That's the entire point of non-dualism. One, not two. LOL! It's been what I've been trying to explain across dozens of posts and you reject each attempt.

I keep suggesting you study non-dualism as taught by actual non-dualists and handed down and refined over thousands of years. Then you won't have to take my word for it, because what I'm posting is standard spiritual non-dualism teachings. I'm even quoting directly from The Upanishads and Swami Vivekanadna and no, I'm not misinterpreting the quotes because they are in very simple and plain English.

Care to point out one of my supposed misinterpretations, explain exactly how you perceive I'm misinterpreting it, give me your interpretation and then we can dissect it in detail?

Concerning illusion, I'd replace it with unreal or more accurately not real enough. My impression is it's like electromagnetism and the nuclear weak force. Both are not real enough because if we kick up the energy high enough both fold into one force, the electroweak force. So at the energy level we exist at they appear to us as real (dual) however at an energy level far, far beyond the one we exist at they reveal their true nature, the electroweak force (non-dual).

At out level of reality there are objects, lots of them, including people. At the foundation level of reality the veil is removed and Unity is revealed.

I've also given an example of experiencing a taste of that foundation level of reality, and it's sensing the one in the many. Looking at someone and "seeing" one's self looking back and in a visceral way, so much so that it literally reverberates energy or tingling throughout the body and brings tears to one's eyes. At least that was my initial experience and from the absolute stunning shock of experiencing it. I'm not just talking theory.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Hello Justasimpleguy

We can continue talking, without judgment, if you like.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

That's the entire point of non-dualism. One, not two. LOL! It's been what I've been trying to explain across dozens of posts and you reject each attempt.

I keep suggesting you study non-dualism as taught by actual non-dualists and handed down and refined over thousands of years. Then you won't have to take my word for it, because what I'm posting is standard spiritual non-dualism teachings. I'm even quoting directly from The Upanishads and Swami Vivekanadna and no, I'm not misinterpreting the quotes because they are in very simple and plain English.

Care to point out one of my supposed misinterpretations, explain exactly how you perceive I'm misinterpreting it, give me your interpretation and then we can dissect it in detail?

Concerning illusion, I'd replace it with unreal or more accurately not real enough. My impression is it's like electromagnetism and the nuclear weak force. Both are not real enough because if we kick up the energy high enough both fold into one force, the electroweak force. So at the energy level we exist at they appear to us as real (dual) however at an energy level far, far beyond the one we exist at they reveal their true nature, the electroweak force (non-dual).

At out level of reality there are objects, lots of them, including people. At the foundation level of reality the veil is removed and Unity is revealed.

I've also given an example of experiencing a taste of that foundation level of reality, and it's sensing the one in the many. Looking at someone and "seeing" one's self looking back and in a visceral way, so much so that it literally reverberates energy or tingling throughout the body and brings tears to one's eyes. At least that was my initial experience and from the absolute stunning shock of experiencing it. I'm not just talking theory.

And I have telling you, which you have been ignoring and making fun of, is that You put limits on occupied space while I do not put limits on occupied space "as above so below"

Originally Posted by MikeS80

We can continue talking, without judgment, if you like.

Sure we can but it's not going anywhere because you're wedded to your own formulation of spiritual non-dualism which in no way, shape of form bears the slightest resemblance to spiritual non-dualism.

Do I have to point out the total and absolute lack of humility you display? That you, in maybe a decade or less, have come to Truth and all the answers that have eluded the mystics and scholars of spirituality over the eons?

That, my friend, is Ego. You can cling to it or put forth an earnest effort to let go. The choice is yours.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Sure we can but it's not going anywhere because you're wedded to your own formulation of spiritual non-dualism which in no way, shape of form bears the slightest resemblance to spiritual non-dualism.

Why is that,....because my views are unconventional and are not part of the status quo "matrix" of the mind (conditioning, knowing that empathy and sympathy is used against our inherently good human nature). You ask questions to prevent empathy and sympathy being used against your inherently good human nature.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Do I have to point out the total and absolute lack of humility you display? That you, in maybe a decade or less, have come to Truth and all the answers that have eluded the mystics and scholars of spirituality over the eons?

Sure please do, and ask questions.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

That, my friend, is Ego. You can cling to it or put forth an earnest effort to let go. The choice is yours.

You think it is ego based on your beliefs that puts limits on occupied space, which where "designed" to use my empathy and sympathy against me.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Why is that,....because my views are unconventional and are not part of the status quo "matrix" of the mind (conditioning, knowing that empathy and sympathy is used against our inherently good human nature). You ask questions to prevent empathy and sympathy being used against your inherently good human nature.

Sure please do, and ask questions.

You think it is ego based on your beliefs that puts limits on occupied space, which where "designed" to use my empathy and sympathy against me.

Empathy and sympathy, when used incorrectly against our inherently good human nature, for judging, is the cause of our conditioning and on a greater scale brainwashing, separates and causes duality, thus is not Love, oneness, unity, non-duality, harmony and peace.

Edited to make the post more clearer.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Isnt Atman in the phone book? If they are and you use phone book, then there could be a memory within your head, aka nervous system aspect of your brain { nervous system }.

I never heard of thoughts coming from the nervous system before, which makes perfect sense. Thank you for sharing that knowledge, I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Look within your own nervous system to recall phone number for Atman and call them.


Oh wait, if Atman is God, and if Ram Das is correct, and we are all God, then just call yourself on the phone.


Hello, is this r6? Its not? Then who am I talking to? Ram Dass! Hey dude I thought you were dead!


Oh its not you. Just Simple Guy, as God, playing a prank on me. You merry prankesters are all the same. You all think your God, or Atman or any number of differrent personalities, when your on or off your medications.