Where there is a will there is a way! But what is "will" exactly?

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by LadyVictoria

Last night before bed ...

Reading your post I felt emboldened to reply. We differ in our opinions. I started, then I realized that I don't care to argue, and you seem too confident in your beliefs to use anything from what I'd comment. The tone makes the music.

Originally Posted by LadyVictoria

Last night before bed I watched a program on youtube about an interdisciplinary consortium's look at the question of free will.

(For some reason this forum won't let me post links - it says I need 15 post or more but I have that so I'll have to contact admin but until I can add these links if you want to watch the video or read the article you can search the title)

Youtube Video: Closer to the Truth: Big Questions in Free Will

The most interesting thing I found on this program was a study where they had participants read an article and after they read the article they were given a math test where they could cheat the test if they wanted to.

Some participants were given an article about neuroscience finding that free will is an illusion and that there is no free will, and another group of participants were not.

The participants who read that there was no such thing as free will were actually more inclined to cheat than those that were't indoctrinated in this idea that free will is an illusion.

So regardless if free will is true or false, our belief in it or not in it has an impact on our behavior.

So far these experiments have been done by two separate researchers and here is a brief article on those studies.

Article: Destined to Cheat: New Research Finds Free Will Can Keep Us Honest published by the Association for Psychological Science

From a sociological point of view man's belief in the idea of having free will is overall beneficial to society as a whole.

Now another point that was brought up in that video from one researcher. I think he was a sociologist who was studying self control felt that we did have free will however when we assert our will it weakens us, it's a energy draining endeavor. And they conducted experiments to show how the decision making process causes muscle weakness within the subject.

As I meditate more and more on this subject I definitely feel caught in a feedback loop. From my own personal experience I would assert that I do have a will because I've used this tool called will power many many times in my life and I've gotten results. As far as I'm concerned there is definitely something in that.

For people who don't think they have free will or have any control of their life's journey and destination I wonder what their life experience is like in comparison to a person who not only believes they have free will but asserts it as well.

Our beliefs systems definitely impact our direct life experiences of this I have no doubt. I think this shows how our experience of reality is actually a reflection of consciousness in all it's infinite forms but inherently it has no existence.

I was very resistant to this idea at first because how can it not exist if I'm having an experience of it. If I'm experiencing it it must exists. But really if it's just a reflection of that which my conscious awareness wishes to see and experience based my thought patterns i.e. beliefs about reality then what's the actual reality.

When I get to this point where both everything exists and yet simultaneously nothing exists I cannot help by smile, laugh and rejoice at the shear absurdity of it all!

I have a boatload of Closer to Truth videos in my Consciousness playlist.

I like Mr. Kuhn. He examines a question from many sides.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by LadyVictoria

Last night before bed I watched a program on youtube about an interdisciplinary consortium's look at the question of free will.

(For some reason this forum won't let me post links - it says I need 15 post or more but I have that so I'll have to contact admin but until I can add these links if you want to watch the video or read the article you can search the title)

Youtube Video: Closer to the Truth: Big Questions in Free Will

The most interesting thing I found on this program was a study where they had participants read an article and after they read the article they were given a math test where they could cheat the test if they wanted to.

Some participants were given an article about neuroscience finding that free will is an illusion and that there is no free will, and another group of participants were not.

The participants who read that there was no such thing as free will were actually more inclined to cheat than those that were't indoctrinated in this idea that free will is an illusion.

So regardless if free will is true or false, our belief in it or not in it has an impact on our behavior.

So far these experiments have been done by two separate researchers and here is a brief article on those studies.

Article: Destined to Cheat: New Research Finds Free Will Can Keep Us Honest published by the Association for Psychological Science

From a sociological point of view man's belief in the idea of having free will is overall beneficial to society as a whole.

Now another point that was brought up in that video from one researcher. I think he was a sociologist who was studying self control felt that we did have free will however when we assert our will it weakens us, it's a energy draining endeavor. And they conducted experiments to show how the decision making process causes muscle weakness within the subject.

As I meditate more and more on this subject I definitely feel caught in a feedback loop. From my own personal experience I would assert that I do have a will because I've used this tool called will power many many times in my life and I've gotten results. As far as I'm concerned there is definitely something in that.

For people who don't think they have free will or have any control of their life's journey and destination I wonder what their life experience is like in comparison to a person who not only believes they have free will but asserts it as well.

Our beliefs systems definitely impact our direct life experiences of this I have no doubt. I think this shows how our experience of reality is actually a reflection of consciousness in all it's infinite forms but inherently it has no existence.

I was very resistant to this idea at first because how can it not exist if I'm having an experience of it. If I'm experiencing it it must exists. But really if it's just a reflection of that which my conscious awareness wishes to see and experience based my thought patterns i.e. beliefs about reality then what's the actual reality.

When I get to this point where both everything exists and yet simultaneously nothing exists I cannot help by smile, laugh and rejoice at the shear absurdity of it all!

The illusion is very convincing. If you know about holograms, imagine if mind had the capacity to produce holograms which operated on all the senses, not just vision. Such an appearance would look and feel no different than the world we see around us, which looks very solidly full of separate stuff, including ourselves with apparent free will, but which is entirely an illuison of difference where there is no difference whatsoever.

It is on something like this basis, despite such a very convincing appearance of difference, that Nonduality asserts that All is One.

[LadyVictoria]

Originally Posted by Iamit

The illusion is very convincing. If you know about holograms, imagine if mind had the capacity to produce holograms which operated on all the senses, not just vision. Such an appearance would look and feel no different than the world we see around us, which looks very solidly full of separate stuff, including ourselves with apparent free will, but which is entirely an illuison of difference where there is no difference whatsoever. Despite such a very convincing appearance of difference, Nonduality asserts that All is One.

The Halodeck! Make is so....lol!

[FallingLeaves]

well i think you have something in that 'will' is the driving force in getting things done. something was said about seeking and finding, knocking and doors opening, asking and receiving... but without enough will to do the first part you don't get the second.

What is to be achieved is another matter from will entirely lol. This is where I always fall flat. Lately I feel like abstaining sometimes.

As far as going against divine will, well it seems like the books say we are a ways down that path and have been for a while. I guess the proof is in the pudding, if that is true I suppose a brick wall will appear at some point in the future. Some people are painting pictures of what it might look like, others are laughing at the paintings. So unless it actually happens... (shrugs)

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

As I said if all is within One and One within all there cannot be two identities, that of Self and that of self. Something has to give.

LOGIC 101: a 3-D 'matrix' and the 'planes', 'rows' and 'columns' 'within' it are contain and may be thought to be constitutionally composed by/of many interrelated elements. This ideamay be extrapolated to reference an 'infinite'-dimensional matrix ('time' just being one of its countless 'dimensions'). In the case of a THE 'Matrix' of dynamic LIFE, an 'infinite' number of dynamically LIVING planes, rows, columns each composed of countless dynamically evolving 'individual' elements within them 'making up' said (ONE) 'matrix'.

The physical 'clay' => 'pot' analogy doesn't relate to and cannot even begin to truly 'represent' the above TRUTH because the living matrix ('pot') contains the living elements ('clay') it is composed of/by.

The metaphysical dynamics of the matrix and its 'contents' (including every 'individual' 'cell') are inextricably intertwined and equally real. Removing (discounting?) any 'individual' from the 'calculus' would result in the diminishment of the 'matrix' itself, such that the 'matrix' would no longer be ITSELF - this is a logically oxymoronic proposition (from Ch.2 of the Gita: "There was never a time when I*was not, nor thou, nor these princes were not; there will never be a time when we [think what this word actually implies] shall cease to be.... That which is not, shall never be; that which is, shall never cease to be. To the wise, these truths are self-evident."!

Time to rethink and replace 'simple' uni-directional God->Creation ideas with more 'complex' God<->Creation ones, I think (that is, unless you want to continue (illogically, IMO) believing in some kind of superior-inferior 'duality' because it 'suits' some emotional 'desire' still active 'in' your self).

[davidsun]

I think that what is thought of as 'will' may be more meaningfully thought of as 'purpose' or 'intent'. In my book, Life is Creativity, and Creativity is causal purpose, in action.

[HITESH SHAH]

Without getting into inferior-superior , real /unreal(illusionary ) dichotomies /debates (none of the original theology or scriptures talk about and if one feels so , one needs to re-read it again and again to get the real meaning of it), there is definitely undisputable evidence of bigger vs smaller and infinite vs finite and limitless vs limited.

Originally Posted by davidsun

LOGIC 101: a 3-D 'matrix' and the 'planes', 'rows' and 'columns' 'within' it are contain and may be thought to be constitutionally composed by/of many interrelated elements. This ideamay be extrapolated to reference an 'infinite'-dimensional matrix ('time' just being one of its countless 'dimensions'). In the case of a THE 'Matrix' of dynamic LIFE, an 'infinite' number of dynamically LIVING planes, rows, columns each composed of countless dynamically evolving 'individual' elements within them 'making up' said (ONE) 'matrix'.

The physical 'clay' => 'pot' analogy doesn't relate to and cannot even begin to truly 'represent' the above TRUTH because the living matrix ('pot') contains the living elements ('clay') it is composed of/by.

The metaphysical dynamics of the matrix and its 'contents' (including every 'individual' 'cell') are inextricably intertwined and equally real. Removing (discounting?) any 'individual' from the 'calculus' would result in the diminishment of the 'matrix' itself, such that the 'matrix' would no longer be ITSELF - this is a logically oxymoronic proposition (from Ch.2 of the Gita: "There was never a time when I*was not, nor thou, nor these princes were not; there will never be a time when we [think what this word actually implies] shall cease to be.... That which is not, shall never be; that which is, shall never cease to be. To the wise, these truths are self-evident."!

Time to rethink and replace 'simple' uni-directional God->Creation ideas with more 'complex' God<->Creation ones, I think (that is, unless you want to continue (illogically, IMO) believing in some kind of superior-inferior 'duality' because it 'suits' some emotional 'desire' still active 'in' your self).

Tilting at windmills again.

Your peace of mind would be better served by turning inward instead of focusing on me.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

...
Your peace of mind would be better served by turning inward instead ...

This is a great advice for everybody! It has to be done from a neutral position, no beliefs no expectations, only a mild desire to know.