Truth

[JosephineB]

Barry Carter philosophy.stackexchange.com Re the Aristotle Quote:

If you view Aristotle's "Metaphysics" at http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metaphysics.mb.txt and search for the word "know" (including words with "know" n them), you will see that he strongly suggests it several times, though not as a direct quote, at least not in this translation. Perhaps the most relevant paragraph:

"Some of the sensible substances are generally admitted to be substances, so that we must look first among these. For it is an advantage to advance to that which is more knowable. For learning proceeds for all in this way-through that which is less knowable by nature to that which is more knowable; and just as in conduct our task is to start from what is good for each and make what is without qualification good good for each, so it is our task to start from what is more knowable to oneself and make what is knowable by nature knowable to oneself. Now what is knowable and primary for particular sets of people is often knowable to a very small extent, and has little or nothing of reality. But yet one must start from that which is barely knowable but knowable to oneself, and try to know what is knowable without qualification, passing, as has been said, by way of those very things which one does know."

The point he's making is the opposite of what the quotation suggests: Aristotle believes that all things are knowable, but, in a specific individual's journey towards complete knowledge, there will be times that new knowledge shows there are more things to learn.

The last instance of 'know' occurs in a somewhat weak sentence "But evidently in a sense knowledge is universal, and in a sense it is not." End quote.

The link doesn't work for some reason.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs

Barry Carter philosophy.stackexchange.com Re the Aristotle Quote:

If you view Aristotle's "Metaphysics" at http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metaphysics.mb.txt and search for the word "know" (including words with "know" n them), you will see that he strongly suggests it several times, though not as a direct quote, at least not in this translation. Perhaps the most relevant paragraph:

"Some of the sensible substances are generally admitted to be substances, so that we must look first among these. For it is an advantage to advance to that which is more knowable. For learning proceeds for all in this way-through that which is less knowable by nature to that which is more knowable; and just as in conduct our task is to start from what is good for each and make what is without qualification good good for each, so it is our task to start from what is more knowable to oneself and make what is knowable by nature knowable to oneself. Now what is knowable and primary for particular sets of people is often knowable to a very small extent, and has little or nothing of reality. But yet one must start from that which is barely knowable but knowable to oneself, and try to know what is knowable without qualification, passing, as has been said, by way of those very things which one does know."

The point he's making is the opposite of what the quotation suggests: Aristotle believes that all things are knowable, but, in a specific individual's journey towards complete knowledge, there will be times that new knowledge shows there are more things to learn.

The last instance of 'know' occurs in a somewhat weak sentence "But evidently in a sense knowledge is universal, and in a sense it is not." End quote.

The link doesn't work for some reason.

That sort of confirms that knowledge changes as additional data is revealed, so to adopt knowledge expressed at one point in that process, when there may well be more data yet to come, would be insurcure as ones realization/philosophy of life. Rather than talking about truth as ones foundation, it may be clearer to say that this is what we think we know at this point in time, then the insecurity of believing one has discovered the truth at that point would be understood as insecure and subject to possible change.

[JosephineB]

Did one of the politicians do a speech on "known knowns", lol. I'll have to look that up now.

[JosephineB]

Unknown unknowns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPe1OiKQuk

[Iamit]

The Parable of The Highwayman"and the implications for the pursuit of truth.

Once upon a time in England a coach was held up by a highwayman. "Your purse sir" said the brigand which the passenger duly handed over. The highwayman dumped his hat, coat and wig in a ditch and rode off to the next town. A beggar dressed himself with them and made his way to the town where the passenger identified him as the robber and put him on trial.

The Highwayman was present and, with the courts permission, put on the wig, hat, and coat, went over to the passenger and said "Your purse sir". The passenger said "This is the man that robbed me" but the trouble was that he had already sworn that the beggar was the robber.

And so it is with all who pay attention to the 'what' and not the 'how'. They venture life and limb, would hang themselves and others, all on account of the wig".

There may be much hidden in ditches (and elsewhere:) that contradicts what is believed to be a discovered truth based on this or that so called evidence

[JosephineB]

Originally Posted by Iamit

The Parable of The Highwayman"and the implications for the pursuit of truth.

Once upon a time in England a coach was held up by a highwayman. "Your purse sir" said the brigand which the passenger duly handed over. The highwayman dumped his hat, coat and wig in a ditch and rode off to the next town. A beggar dressed himself with them and made his way to the town where the passenger identified him as the robber and put him on trial.

The Highwayman was present and, with the courts permission, put on the wig, hat, and coat, went over to the passenger and said "Your purse sir". The passenger said "This is the man that robbed me" but the trouble was that he had already sworn that the beggar was the robber.

And so it is with all who pay attention to the 'what' and not the 'how'. They venture life and limb, would hang themselves and others, all on account of the wig".

There may be much hidden in ditches (and elsewhere:) that contradicts what is believed to be a discovered truth based on this or that so called evidence

Very good.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Iamit

If seekers are concerned that any solution they may find to the spiritual search must be the truth, this places a considerable hurdle in front of them and a very insecure basis for any enlightenment they think they have obtained. There may always be something hidden that contradicts the truth you think you have discovered, and when it appears, will shatter the enlightenment you thought you had achieved. Resonance with a solution can be enough if the idea that one can securely know the truth has been trancended so that one has escaped this truth trap and it is no longer a requirement that the solution resonated with has to be the truth.

If your truth or enlightenment is shattered, then that was not truth or enlightenment. Enlightenment is being able to tell the diffrence between what is false (mithya), and what is truth, mithya leads one to maya (ignorance).


"satya or satyam. It is not merely truthfulness, but that singular Truth that can never be untrue at any time, place, or circumstance. Non-dual Truth transcends, time, space, and causation. Note, that time and space create divisions. If something transcends time and space it has no limits or boundaries. Therefore, this Truth/Reality must be infinite, eternal, and indivisible, hence, all-pervading. Further, there cannot be two infinites. Thus Brahman is all there is. So what is this world?

The statement above says it is mithya, false. But what does this false mean? It means changing, impermanent, perishable, superimposed, and dependent on something else for its existence. Another great statement from the Upanisads asserts, Sarvam khalvidam Brahman, All this, indeed, is Brahman. All this (idam), meaning that all we see with our mind and senses is Brahman, but we are not recognizing it as Brahman. And this is maya, ignorance, the cause of all suffering.That one, the Eternal among non-eternals, the Intelligence of the intelligent, who though ever one fulfills the desires of the many those who realize that One as existing in their own self, to them belongs eternal peace, and to none else.

Shining like burnished gold in the luminous sheath of intelligence, the deepest core of the human being, there dwells Brahman, stainless, indivisible, and pure. That is the Light of all that shines. That is what the knowers of the Self realize. "
http://www.advaita-academy.org/blogs/brahman-satya/

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

If your truth or enlightenment is shattered, then that was not truth or enlightenment. Enlightenment is being able to tell the diffrence between what is false (mithya), and what is truth, mithya leads one to maya (ignorance).


"satya or satyam. It is not merely truthfulness, but that singular Truth that can never be untrue at any time, place, or circumstance. Non-dual Truth transcends, time, space, and causation. Note, that time and space create divisions. If something transcends time and space it has no limits or boundaries. Therefore, this Truth/Reality must be infinite, eternal, and indivisible, hence, all-pervading. Further, there cannot be two infinites. Thus Brahman is all there is. So what is this world?

The statement above says it is mithya, false. But what does this false mean? It means changing, impermanent, perishable, superimposed, and dependent on something else for its existence. Another great statement from the Upanisads asserts, Sarvam khalvidam Brahman, All this, indeed, is Brahman. All this (idam), meaning that all we see with our mind and senses is Brahman, but we are not recognizing it as Brahman. And this is maya, ignorance, the cause of all suffering.That one, the Eternal among non-eternals, the Intelligence of the intelligent, who though ever one fulfills the desires of the many those who realize that One as existing in their own self, to them belongs eternal peace, and to none else.

Shining like burnished gold in the luminous sheath of intelligence, the deepest core of the human being, there dwells Brahman, stainless, indivisible, and pure. That is the Light of all that shines. That is what the knowers of the Self realize. "
http://www.advaita-academy.org/blogs/brahman-satya/

Truth alone prevents and dissolves Mithya (false beliefs/false mental and emotional conditioning) and Maya (ignorance) Mithya and maya together causes "illusions" or "dreams".

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

If your truth or enlightenment is shattered, then that was not truth or enlightenment. Enlightenment is being able to tell the diffrence between what is false (mithya), and what is truth, mithya leads one to maya (ignorance).


"satya or satyam. It is not merely truthfulness, but that singular Truth that can never be untrue at any time, place, or circumstance. Non-dual Truth transcends, time, space, and causation. Note, that time and space create divisions. If something transcends time and space it has no limits or boundaries. Therefore, this Truth/Reality must be infinite, eternal, and indivisible, hence, all-pervading. Further, there cannot be two infinites. Thus Brahman is all there is. So what is this world?

The statement above says it is mithya, false. But what does this false mean? It means changing, impermanent, perishable, superimposed, and dependent on something else for its existence. Another great statement from the Upanisads asserts, Sarvam khalvidam Brahman, All this, indeed, is Brahman. All this (idam), meaning that all we see with our mind and senses is Brahman, but we are not recognizing it as Brahman. And this is maya, ignorance, the cause of all suffering.That one, the Eternal among non-eternals, the Intelligence of the intelligent, who though ever one fulfills the desires of the many those who realize that One as existing in their own self, to them belongs eternal peace, and to none else.

Shining like burnished gold in the luminous sheath of intelligence, the deepest core of the human being, there dwells Brahman, stainless, indivisible, and pure. That is the Light of all that shines. That is what the knowers of the Self realize. "
http://www.advaita-academy.org/blogs/brahman-satya/

Ok so you believe that truth can be securely known. Dissappointments may arise. Our points have been made and understood, no point repeating.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Ok so you believe that truth can be securely known. Dissappointments may arise. Our points have been made and understood, no point repeating.

There is no disappointment outside of the finite of space and time. The concepts of space and time is what causes dissapointment.