Jesus implied that he was responsible for us.

Originally Posted by Reverend Keith

Of course, since the Gospel of John was written quite late, the other possibility is that Jesus didn't actually SAY this, or that he said it in a mystical context wherein he is speaking of himself as the Logos of God who is spiritually present to all people, even those who have not heard of him (as the beginning of the gospel of John suggests).

Our hearing about Jesus and accepting him is at LEAST as much about where we were born, who our parents are, and what kinds of Christians we were exposed to as children as it is about our personal choice. Therefore, unless either salvation is random, or God is deliberately sabotaging the salvation of some, then there must be an opportunity for all, whether they've heard of Jesus or not.

So my paraphrase of the scripture above would be -
"Everyone who comes to the Father, whether they know it or not, comes through the grace of the divine logos - the spark of the divine present in everyone. And I am a symbol of that logos"

You make so much sense. I always enjoy reading what you write.

On the matter of atonement, is the following logical?

...But the murderer, overtaken by human justice, is imprisoned, wept over by sentimentalists, prayed with and at, pronounces the charmed words of conversion, and goes to the scaffold a redeemed child of Jesus! Except for the murder, he would not have been prayed with, redeemed, pardoned. Clearly this man did well to murder, for thus he gained eternal happiness? And how about the victim, and his or her family, relatives, dependants, social relations — has justice no recompense for them? Must they suffer in this world and the next, while he who wronged them sits beside the "holy thief" of Calvary and is forever blessed? On this question the clergy keep a prudent silence.

[Amilius777]

I love how people and Christians never read their history. We all know the Gospels were not written for 70 years after Jesus passed away. And Jesus' purpose was for whom? The Jews.

"I was sent unto the lost sheep of Israel". "Salvation is for the Jews".

Jesus said it over and over again that he was sent by God for the Jewish People.

The later- "Preach unto all the world the gospel in the name of the Father- Son- Holy Spirit!" was a forgery by the later centuries of the Roman Catholic Church.

How do we know it was a forgery? Because it goes against what the Apostles did. Obviously people were so dumb in the 2nd Century that they didn't know how to set up a book but sure could fool the even dumber Common Folk.

The Apostles only preached to the Jews and spread their message. It was Paul many decades later who received nothing from his own that he heard the voice of Christ tell him to pass it unto the Gentiles.

St. Paul started Christianity, not Jesus. Jesus never started a Church. Saint Paul created what we call Orthodox Christianity- Roman and Eastern Catholicism.

Paul gave a tradition to the Western culture to know the Eternal Truths of God which the JEWS already knew through Moses and their prophets.

Jesus did not say he was the ONLY savior nor did he say he was the only Son. He said it word for word- "God sent his only BEGOTTEN Son". But doesn't the Old Testament call King David a begotten Son and anointed? Doesn't Solomon get this title too?

Jesus was the only one who held the mantle of "The Christ" and did not sin unlike David-Solomon and several other prophets. That is all it meant.

When he said- "I am the Way, the Truth ,and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me" has two meanings. One is a historical meaning and second is a spiritual meaning.

Historically there were countless self-proclaimed Messiahs during Jesus' time. This is what Christianity doesn't tell its followers. Jesus was saying that he was the only one sent by God and charged with a divine mission. The others were violent antiChrists who wanted to pitch wars and pillages with the Romans.

Jesus came as a nonviolent, selfless, sacrificial healer and virtue working Messenger of God because the Mosaic Laws became corrupted and turned into a religion which is what is happening now with Saint Paul's Christianity for the past centuries.

Jesus explains that he did not die for everyone's sins. He died for the sins of many. Who are these many? He allowed himself to be killed by sinners to demonstrate the humility of Divinity and the glory of Divinity in his resurrection. He also took on the sins of his Apostles and purified them on the Cross when he said- "No greater love than this if a Man lays down his life for his friends". And he can intercede on your behalf for negative consequences for future times because- "He went back to the Father".

That is all that means. I hope this cleared up everything and stop the obsession that if you don't believe in Jesus you will go to hell.

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by Amilius777

The later- "Preach unto all the world the gospel in the name of the Father- Son- Holy Spirit!" was a forgery by the later centuries of the Roman Catholic Church.

How do we know it was a forgery? Because it goes against what the Apostles did. Obviously people were so dumb in the 2nd Century that they didn't know how to set up a book but sure could fool the even dumber Common Folk.

The Apostles only preached to the Jews and spread their message.

If you read chapter 10 of Acts you will find that Peter, the leader of the apostles, was the first to preach to the gentiles.

The apostles also sent Barnabas to help the church at Antioch and he recruited Paul to help him so Paul's authority came from the apostles.

The report of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad, and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose, for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord. So Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.
(Acts 11:22-26 ESV)

[Amilius777]

Odd. I wonder why so many scholars claim that verse to be a forgery.

I wouldn't deny the Apostles preaching to the Gentiles because the prophecies of Isaiah say that eventually the gentiles would have to be accepted into the Covenant and knowledge of God.

Originally Posted by Honza

If one was to believe what it says in the New Testament then Jesus implied that he was/is responsible for us. In a sense that means that we are incapable of being responsible for ourselves the full 100%.

He implied that we need him to save us - that we cannot do it ourselves. The responsibility lies with him and not us to save us.

Hence I get very confused. Should I rely on Jesus to save me, or should I attempt to do it myself? Or a bit of both perhaps?

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The problem here is that you look to the man Jesus, the individual, whereas when the Master Jesus spoke it was from the Christ Consciousness, not as the man Jesus. Seen in this light it becomes quite clear what is meant and how we are to interpret his words.

It is the Christ Consciousness, or the "Oversoul", that is guiding us along, and not Jesus the man.

For mortal man who knows the physical realm as the only reality, one must look beyond this realm to our higher consciousness, the Christ Mind, for the way ahead. The mind of man has not the answers to Life, but the Spirit within mankind does and that is where we will advance as spiritual beings. Meditation is the key; times of quiet reflection bring us to a higher level of awareness.

Personally, I like to look at it as a "universal awakening" involving all peoples throughout the world and not just a select few. This is done by understanding the Christ Consciousness (not merely the man Jesus) as the highest state of being.

When Jesus stated: "When you have seen Me you have seen the Father," he is refering to the highest spiritual awakening we experience and it is through this union that we enter into the Universal Consciousness, or Cosmic Consciousness, also called the Father.

It is all very simple when barriers are removed and you think in terms of universality. After all, we now have seven billion souls on this Earth and, according to the Bible, we are all made in the likeness of the Divine Being. ALL IS OF GOD.

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[Amilius777]

^^^^

Agree!

I may also add that when someone saves themselves it is Jesus who automatically saves them. This is because the Universal Self, the Christ, is imprinted upon every individual soul. When that soul saves themselves by connecting to and experiencing the Universal Self (Christ) they are saved.

How does one follow the steps towards salvation from self or error? By following the steps laid out by Jesus the Man who manifested the fullness of that Christ-Consciousness under time and space without measure.