Nirvana

[RyanWind]

Here you go.... did a quick search.. says the exact same thing I did...

Traditionally Zen is a form of Buddhism that strictly emphasises 'sitting meditation' for the realization of Buddhist truths, particularly for realising the truth of no-self, emptiness, and the uncreated Mind.

http://home.primusonline.com.au/peony/zen.htm

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Zen... de-emphasizes mere knowledge of sutras and doctrine[5][6] and favors direct understanding ...[7]

Do you realize your quote just proved what I said was right?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

You don't find truth in books or suttas. Like Bodhidharma said.

Reading is fine if you apply it to reality at some point.

Buddhism is not concepts and beliefs. That's dogma. That is NOT Buddhism. Buddhism exists to point you to realizations. It was not created to memorize and read and just stay stuck there.

Yes you read it and apply it. Just reading it will get you nowhere. Knowing what and how to do the techniques comes from a teacher and the teachings of previous masters.

If you refuse to learn what is known or the teachings and techniques then you are not following anything.

My first answer to you was showing Bodhidharma told his students to read a sutra. That Zen requires it monks to have deep knowledge of sutras and koans.

So answer my question is a teacher important in Zen?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Do you realize your quote just proved what I said was right?

De-emphasizes does not mean none or zero don't you know?

Keep reading the rest of that post for a better understanding.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Here you go.... did a quick search.. says the exact same thing I did...

Lol,

Did you notice on the left hand side of the page a list of Zen Sutras.

Can't make this stuff up.

Also did you notice the entire article is quotes from Zen teachings.

My goodness.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

So answer my question is a teacher important in Zen?

Depends on the teacher. A lot of teachers can't teach or don't know the subject well. Also depends what the student wants to learn. A teacher would not be important to a student if the teacher is not teaching stuff the student wanted to learn. A teacher could be important and could also be a colossal waste of time. It also depends on what the teacher is teaching. Like anybody can get a book on zen and go teach what they read. These teachers might as well say go get the books I did. Some teachers will misinterpret the whole thing and teach a bunch of non-sense. They would not be important teachers. But are we assuming some "zen" teachers are self-realized and reside in emptiness? I could see how an enlightened person, in any religion or path, would be extremely important, not just for one student, but for the consciousness of the entire planet.

You like to teach Zen... like you posted:

Zen... de-emphasizes mere knowledge of sutras and doctrine[5][6] and favors direct understanding ...[7]

This is a good point you made. Zen is about direct experience and not dogma.

But then you posted this:

If you refuse to learn what is known or the teachings and techniques then you are not following anything.

This is a nonsensical statement and not a good teaching. There are over 7 billion people on earth and about 488 million Buddhists. Even less Zen Buddhists. So your statement that infers that around 6.5 billion people are not following anything is non-sense. Everyone is conditioned and follows something. Like I have said before, truth is not owned by any religion. It is a human potential in everyone. Anyone can experience self-realization or what the word" enlightenment" or "emptiness" refers to.

[jonesboy]

First I asked you about Zen.

Zen is a transmission based system. It is how it started and the main reason for Zen as a tradition. The Transmission from teacher to students.

Please read.

The Flower Sermon is a story of the origin of Zen Buddhism in which Śākyamuni Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) transmits direct prajñā (wisdom) to the disciple Mahākāśyapa. In the original Sino-Japanese, the story is Nengemishō (拈華微笑, literally "Pick up flower, subtle smile").

In the story, Śākyamuni gives a wordless sermon to his disciples (sangha) by holding up a white flower. No one in the audience understands the Flower Sermon except Mahākāśyapa, who smiles. Within Zen, the Flower Sermon communicates the ineffable nature of tathātā (suchness) and Mahākāśyapa's smile signifies the direct transmission of wisdom without words. Śākyamuni affirmed this by saying:

I possess the true Dharma eye, the marvelous mind of Nirvana, the true form of the formless, the subtle [D]harma [G]ate that does not rest on words or letters but is a special transmission outside of the scriptures. This I entrust to Mahākāśyapa.[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

Dharma transmission is a custom in which a person is established as a "successor in an unbroken lineage of teachers and disciples, a spiritual 'bloodline' (kechimyaku) theoretically traced back to the Buddha himself."[1] The dharma lineage reflects the importance of family-structures in ancient China, and forms a symbolic and ritual recreation of this system for the monastical "family".[2]

In Rinzai-Zen, inka shōmei is ideally "the formal recognition of Zen's deepest realisation",[3] but practically it is being used for the transmission of the "true lineage" of the masters (shike) of the training halls.[4] There are only about fifty[web 1] to eighty[web 2] of such inka shōmei-bearers in Japan.

In Soto-Zen, dharma transmission (shiho) provides access to only a relatively low grade. It is listed as a requirement for the very lowest ecclesiastical status, that of an instructor third class (santō kyōshi)[5] further training is required to become an oshō.

Though dharma transmission implies the acknowledgement of insight into the teachings of Buddhism as understood by the Zen tradition, especially seeing into one's true nature, dharma transmission is also a means to establish a person into the Zen tradition:[23]

The matter of learning from a teacher is most essential. People of old who arrived at the source of seeing nature, passed through many barriers clearly and completely without a dot of doubt, and traveled freely through the world opening big mouths in discussion, only came to know the transcendental message of Zen after they finally ran into Zen masters of great vision. Then they sincerely sought certainty and wound up with the duty of the teacher's succession, bearing the debt of Dharma, never to forget it for a moment. This is called dharma succession. Since ancient times the designated succession of the ancestral teachers has always been like this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma_transmission


Without a zen teacher you are just spinning your wheels and not even coming close to practicing Zen. It is about the mind to mind transmission... Something you don't even believe in.

The rest about billions of people is nonsense.

We are talking Buddhism not Ryanism.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The rest about billions of people is nonsense.

What is nonsense about this specifically?

There are over 7 billion people on earth and about 488 million Buddhists. Even less Zen Buddhists. So your statement that infers that around 6.5 billion people are not following anything is non-sense. Everyone is conditioned and follows something.

What you said is non-sense.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

If you refuse to learn what is known or the teachings and techniques then you are not following anything.

Explain how all the people on this earth who are not Buddhists are following nothing. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Humanists, Philanthropists, Democrats, Republicans, Agnostics, Scientists, all follow nothing?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

What is nonsense about this specifically?



What you said is non-sense.



Explain how all the people on this earth who are not Buddhists are following nothing. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Humanists, Philanthropists, Democrats, Republicans, Agnostics, Scientists, all follow nothing?

Well I'm glad you skipped over the entire teacher transmission stuff in Zen.

We are talking about freaking Buddhism and the various traditions not republican and democrats.

What is that?

I was saying within the traditions the teachings are from masters that help one to understand what they are experiencing and to help them along the way step by step.

If you refuse to learn what is known from let's say a Zen tradition and you refuse to follow a teacher and receive the Dhrama transmission you are not following Zen. You are spinning your wheels..

You will instead come up with your own theories like a silent mind is the same as zoning out playing video games or Zen doesn't believe in sutras or emptiness is the same for all religions.

You are a smart guy Ryan but you are trapped in your own theories and refuse to learn.

It's funny, before I met you I knew nothing about Zen. I have read , studied the teachings and I bet I know more about it than you. Because you don't want to learn from anyone.

You know it all already.

[RyanWind]

If you don’t understand life by yourself, you’ll have to find a teacher to get to the bottom of it. But unless the teacher sees his nature, such a person isn’t even a teacher. Even if the teacher can recite the Twelvefold Canon he can’t escape the Wheel of Birth and Death. He suffers in the three realms without hope of release. Long ago, the monk Good Star 21 was able to recite the entire Canon. But he didn’t escape the Wheel, because he didn’t see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite and read sutras or shastras and think it’s the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your mind, reciting so much prose is useless. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.

Bodhidharma.