Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Divination > Tarot and Oracle Cards

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-04-2012, 11:32 PM
Reverend Keith Reverend Keith is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 316
  Reverend Keith's Avatar
Swords=Air, Wands=Fire, or not?

Had a question/observation.

I've been working on specifications for a set of artwork of the four archangels representing the cardinal directions/points of the compass in the western mystery traditions.

There are a number of contradictory systems and correspondences to wade through in deciding on the symbols to include in each piece of art, but I thought I had most of it worked out to my satisfaction, with one exception.

Raphael is most often associated with the east, and the east is most often associated with air. Except that in tarot, I was taught that swords were the symbol of air. Yet a sword is not typically found in the hands of the healer Raphael.

At the same time, Michael is most often associated with the south, and the south most often associated with fire. Yet in tarot, I had been taught that the symbol of fire is the wand. Michael is rarely seen with a wand or staff (unless you make it into a spear). Yet Michael often - in fact typically - carries a sword. A wand (or caduceus) or a staff is, however, often associated with Raphael.

However, I recently ran into a few forum posts elsewhere that hinted that there is some controversy over whether the swords=air, wands=fire symbolism is not perhaps reversed, and that in some (particularly wiccan or pagan) symbologies, they ARE reversed.

If you reverse these, the correspondences seem to fit nicely. Anyone have opinions or information on this possible reversal from the traditional associations?
__________________
"If you bring forth that which is within you,
that which is within you will save you.
If you don't bring forth that which is within you,
that which is within you will destroy you."


- The Gospel of Thomas (70)

http://pathstoknowledge.com
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-04-2012, 05:19 AM
Quintessence
Posts: n/a
 
I used to have some sources for this, but it's been so long I can't really remember where I pinned them down from. I think it may have something to do with some of the hermetic orders, specifically Golden Dawn's occult revival. Ceremonial magicians did quite a lot with the Tarot, and how they are designed and interpreted bears their stamp of influence. Waite, who created the standard of all Tarot decks, was a member of Golden Dawn. I would look there.

I've always corresponded swords with Fire and wands with Air because of my studies in the Four Elements, but the Tarot doesn't exactly follow the classical cannon with regards to the Four Elements anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-04-2012, 07:03 AM
norseman norseman is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Striding the hedge
Posts: 4,555
  norseman's Avatar
King of Discs, Lord of the Powers of Earth [ North ], colour Green
King of Swords, Lord of the Powers of Air [ East ], colour Yellow
King of Wands, Lord of the Powers of Fire [ South ], colour Red
KIng of Cups, Lord of the Powers of Water [ West ], colour Blue



Linking card is the goddess, Mother Earth, Gaia, etc. [Sacred Circle Tarot]
__________________
Remembrance is a form of meeting.[Gibran]
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 13-04-2012, 07:02 PM
LadyTerra
Posts: n/a
 
Greetings Reverend Keith:

Most Decks are based on the Ryder/Waite system--which stands as follows;

Cups/ElementalWater/West/Springtime/Love and Happiness

Wands/ElementalFire/South/Summertime/Enterprise and Action

Swords/ElementalAir/East/Autumntime/Defense and Aggression

Pentacles/ElementalEarth/North/Wintertime/Material or Spiritual Gain

You will find varying opinions and interpretations.

However--IMO--I think your Deck would be better served by holding true to the actual Nature, Attributes, and Forbearances--attributed to the ArchAngels in question.

Most GuardianAngel and ArchAngel Decks with which I have been acquianted were not based on the Ryder/Waite Deck and from what I have learned of the ArchAngels there my be no way to draw correlations between the two.

Peace and Love on the path of your choice...

Blessed be...

P.S.

I have yet to run across an ArchAngel Deck that addresses the DarkSide of Their Nature (ie. Michael and the fact that he is a Warrior) and that They exist to carry-out the Will of God.

Food for thought...
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 16-04-2012, 06:55 PM
Reverend Keith Reverend Keith is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Bay Area, California
Posts: 316
  Reverend Keith's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyTerra
Most Decks are based on the Ryder/Waite system--which stands as follows;

Cups/ElementalWater/West/Springtime/Love and Happiness

Wands/ElementalFire/South/Summertime/Enterprise and Action

Swords/ElementalAir/East/Autumntime/Defense and Aggression

Pentacles/ElementalEarth/North/Wintertime/Material or Spiritual Gain

You will find varying opinions and interpretations.

However--IMO--I think your Deck would be better served by holding true to the actual Nature, Attributes, and Forbearances--attributed to the ArchAngels in question.

Most GuardianAngel and ArchAngel Decks with which I have been acquianted were not based on the Ryder/Waite Deck and from what I have learned of the ArchAngels there my be no way to draw correlations between the two.

Peace and Love on the path of your choice...

Blessed be...

P.S.

I have yet to run across an ArchAngel Deck that addresses the DarkSide of Their Nature (ie. Michael and the fact that he is a Warrior) and that They exist to carry-out the Will of God.

Food for thought...


I wasn't actually so ambitious as to design a new deck, but at the moment simply four paintings to decorate an altar space. And since I have absolutely no competence at the actual art, I'm limiting myself to design suggestions passed on to my daughter. But thank you for the comments and suggestions.

I've used a number of angel decks myself, and, while they are very helpful in many circumstances, I have also noticed, as you point out, that they can be a little excessively "upbeat" When I need uplift, I turn to an angel deck, but when I want the unvarnished truth, I pick up a Ryder/Waite tarot. As I've put it to my daughter "The tarot isn't afraid to tell you that you're in a really ****** situation".

However, your suggestion of an angelic (and perhaps Kabbalistic) deck that also deals with the negative energies would be intriguing...
__________________
"If you bring forth that which is within you,
that which is within you will save you.
If you don't bring forth that which is within you,
that which is within you will destroy you."


- The Gospel of Thomas (70)

http://pathstoknowledge.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 17-04-2012, 05:10 AM
Trieah
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Keith
I have also noticed, as you point out, that they can be a little excessively "upbeat" When I need uplift, I turn to an angel deck, but when I want the unvarnished truth, I pick up a Ryder/Waite tarot. As I've put it to my daughter "The tarot isn't afraid to tell you that you're in a really ****** situation".

I hear that And if you're using the same kind of Angel decks that I have, the person who created them is now putting out a "completely safe" Angel tarot as her next deck. I just find that whole concept so sad, because it's so misleading to the people who don't know any better.

I hope you decide to post pictures of your art work once they're finished. I'd love to see what they'll look like
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 17-04-2012, 08:14 PM
LadyTerra
Posts: n/a
 
Greetings Reverend Keith:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Keith
I wasn't actually so ambitious as to design a new deck, but at the moment simply four paintings to decorate an altar space. And since I have absolutely no competence at the actual art, I'm limiting myself to design suggestions passed on to my daughter. But thank you for the comments and suggestions.

I've used a number of angel decks myself, and, while they are very helpful in many circumstances, I have also noticed, as you point out, that they can be a little excessively "upbeat" When I need uplift, I turn to an angel deck, but when I want the unvarnished truth, I pick up a Ryder/Waite tarot. As I've put it to my daughter "The tarot isn't afraid to tell you that you're in a really ****** situation".

However, your suggestion of an angelic (and perhaps Kabbalistic) deck that also deals with the negative energies would be intriguing...


We are in total agreement here. There are some who prefer to ignore the Reversed Meanings--even in the Decks that offer them.

Each to her/his own--I always say.

I tend to be a "Grab the Bull by the Horns" kind of girl and (although I have many different Decks) I prefer the Dragon Tarot--which gets straight to the unvarnished point.

Peace and Love on your path to Creative Expression...

Blessed be...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-05-2012, 04:21 PM
gypsymystique gypsymystique is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,319
 
I think it would be simpler for a reader to go with the inclinations of the archangels rather than traditional swords/wands for your particular deck. Just stay consistent throughout and make sure whatever instructions you give indicate that swords represent fire in that deck and wands represent air.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums