Non-duality doesn't exist.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

True. Listen to any Advaita Vedanta lecture and all the important concepts are conveyed via metaphor, analogy and simile. Signposts, if you will. And this too is Maya however it is the realm mind-body navigates and always will navigate. A fish swims in water. LOL!

Yes indeed, two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl year after year ...floyd are on my mind today, its my brothers birthday he passed away many moons ago and was a big pink floyd fan.....

I was fascinated today by starting points, sometimes we need those, like a meditation object...a torn to remove a torn ramana called it .. all the best. Joe

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Hi

It is true that there are many things in life where words just can describe the reality /experiences fully . As the saying goes "taste of the pudding is in eating " , such things are best experienced . Those who don't have any inkling of such experience will not be able to understand and those who have felt it , do not need any description of it. So in many cases such exercise may result in futile effort with little positive outcome .

However looking this use plainly from these angles would purely be a simplistic approach and would not do enough justice to variety permutation/ combinations life proposes . As we all know spirituality is not a one moment experience . It's a journey (spanning many year/decade /birth) often very difficult and many a times resulting in failure also . In this journey many a times seeker need guidance / motivation / imagination / company of like minded . If somebody who have gone through rigors of Spirituality and is able to guide them with some words despite all its limitations , there is nothing wrong .

If fact if you see the entire journey of science , all discoveries and inventions were never understood by others . Then scientific community with their efforts , hardwork and honesty shared it vividly , with examples and elaborations . That all made a lot of difference to posterity to build upon the experience of their ancestors . I also believe spirituality is no different in this respect.

Definitely agree with you 100 percent. I was also thinking today we sometimes need a place to start, a meditation object, a comforting word or instruction, no two ways about that. Thanks also for acknowledging the ineffable that can only be alluded to in words ..but it can be nicely alluded to i suppose very deeply alluded to in art and science i suppose if i may say that.

Yes as i say as some kind of poet singer/songwriter I believe in the power of language to start us up if you like ...some persons have also suggested a kind of cyclical journey ..I think it was TS Elliot who alluded to finding ourselves back at the beginning ..."We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." Also Chris Martin from Coldplay in that song he wrote the scientist alludes to a circularity ( "oh take me back to the start" ) that exists perhaps in a spiral..so we are travelling upwards at the same time.

What to speak of the whole area of inspired words ..divine language ...or Wisdom so big area i guess. Thanks. Joe.

The afore mentioned song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omv3OFcocNM for your consideration or perusal or not as the case may be. Ps. not really Coldplay fan ..just this song was signpost along the way ..somewhere something somehow ! lol

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[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Yes indeed, two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl year after year ...floyd are on my mind today, its my brothers birthday he passed away many moons ago and was a big pink floyd fan.....

I was fascinated today by starting points, sometimes we need those, like a meditation object...a torn to remove a torn ramana called it .. all the best. Joe

Seeing it as and so calling it a thorn (or via Freudian 'slip', torn) reveals the nature of the seer's/caller's emotional state (hence 'bias').

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Seeing it as and so calling it a thorn (or via Freudian 'slip', torn) reveals the nature of the seer's/caller's emotional state (hence 'bias').

i see i see a spelling mistake ...thorn .thorn indeed. Yes for sure David, its no walk in the park for some that's for sure, it can be bloody alright ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omv3OFcocNM you can also take a listen to that song if you like ..take it easy !!!
" Nobody said it was easy, it's such a shame for us to part, nobody said it was easy, oh take me back to the start !!!" The Garden of Eden David, the Garden of Eden !

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

" Nobody said it was easy, it's such a shame for us to part, nobody said it was easy, oh take me back to the start !!!" The Garden of Eden David, the Garden of Eden !

Great song - song-writers and musicians often sing-play deep 'truths'!

We ain't going back to the 'start' tho. Those of us who are determined to move forward are 'going' someplace even better , I think.

Though this is counterintuitive to those who are still philosophically wrapped up in a body-ego based, and hence physiosocially focused, calculus), the fact is that the pains and losses (etc.) that are suffered and shared in the course of incarnational Life, even as horrific as these will undoubtedly be experienced as being in the course of the apocalypse that is presently unfolding, are not something to be either feared or lamented (not really, that is). It is the very unavoidability of such experience that motivates souls to break out of and jettison the ego‑shells which they would otherwise ‘naturally’ not be inclined to do, because it then becomes unmistakably clear that personal pleasure-maximizing and pain-minimizing schemes and strategies amount to no more than vain attempts to climb and/or carry others up to a higher deck on a sinking physiosocial ‘ship’.

Though self-gratifying physiological and social support systems as well as image-in-native projections which lead people to hope and emotionally anticipate that they will, even if not right away, at least experience relief, ease, fulfillment, happiness, etc. in the future may indeed be Love and Joy sustaining up to a point, the fact remains that soulfully encountering and experiencing the kinds of ‘troubles’ that are, in the final analysis, inescapable aspects of being ensconced ‘in’ a physically limited, temporally transient personal body that is subject to frustration, pain, loss, ego‑defeat, death, etc. is necessary for the kind of self‑transcendental ‘i’dentity expansion and psychospiritual growth spoken of in my treatise to be situationally ‘called’ for and stimulated to ‘come’ forth. A soul’s capacity for psychospiritual fortitude and interpersonal empathy (stemming from cognition and appreciation of the ubiquitousness and transcendency of the Presence and Power of Life Itself), for instance, would never develop otherwise; albeit these are just a couple of a whole host of psychospiritual awareness and adeptitude based capabilities which must be conscientiously directed and devotionally deployed in service of Life Itself for a nodal soul to transcendentally e‧merge from the ‘womb’ of its embryonic other-dependency and infantile selfishness (note: I use the word must here only to state what is functionally necessary for such outcome, not to assert any kind of moralistic ‘should’ in this completely free-choice regard.)

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Yes indeed, two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl year after year ...floyd are on my mind today, its my brothers birthday he passed away many moons ago and was a big pink floyd fan.....

I was fascinated today by starting points, sometimes we need those, like a meditation object...a torn to remove a torn ramana called it .. all the best. Joe

Hello again, Joe - I am guessing you haven't heard and so don't know that members of 'soul groups' (who are therefore intimates in the deep sense of the word ) often reincarnate together as one another's parent, sibling, spouse, or child, and that as part of their 'soul-contract' they may pre-agree than one of them will 'die' 'early' so as to give the other(s) the opportunity to confront and overcome their own 'personal' spiritual 'dependencies' and 'grow' to be more integrally in touch and allied with The Flow Of Life Itself.

See https://www.soulproof.com/when-child-dies/ for example.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Great song - song-writers and musicians often sing-play deep 'truths'!

We ain't going back to the 'start' tho. Those of us who are determined to move forward are 'going' someplace even better , I think.

Though this is counterintuitive to those who are still philosophically wrapped up in a body-ego based, and hence physiosocially focused, calculus), the fact is that the pains and losses (etc.) that are suffered and shared in the course of incarnational Life, even as horrific as these will undoubtedly be experienced as being in the course of the apocalypse that is presently unfolding, are not something to be either feared or lamented (not really, that is). It is the very unavoidability of such experience that motivates souls to break out of and jettison the ego‑shells which they would otherwise ‘naturally’ not be inclined to do, because it then becomes unmistakably clear that personal pleasure-maximizing and pain-minimizing schemes and strategies amount to no more than vain attempts to climb and/or carry others up to a higher deck on a sinking physiosocial ‘ship’.

Though self-gratifying physiological and social support systems as well as image-in-native projections which lead people to hope and emotionally anticipate that they will, even if not right away, at least experience relief, ease, fulfillment, happiness, etc. in the future may indeed be Love and Joy sustaining up to a point, the fact remains that soulfully encountering and experiencing the kinds of ‘troubles’ that are, in the final analysis, inescapable aspects of being ensconced ‘in’ a physically limited, temporally transient personal body that is subject to frustration, pain, loss, ego‑defeat, death, etc. is necessary for the kind of self‑transcendental ‘i’dentity expansion and psychospiritual growth spoken of in my treatise to be situationally ‘called’ for and stimulated to ‘come’ forth. A soul’s capacity for psychospiritual fortitude and interpersonal empathy (stemming from cognition and appreciation of the ubiquitousness and transcendency of the Presence and Power of Life Itself), for instance, would never develop otherwise; albeit these are just a couple of a whole host of psychospiritual awareness and adeptitude based capabilities which must be conscientiously directed and devotionally deployed in service of Life Itself for a nodal soul to transcendentally e‧merge from the ‘womb’ of its embryonic other-dependency and infantile selfishness (note: I use the word must here only to state what is functionally necessary for such outcome, not to assert any kind of moralistic ‘should’ in this completely free-choice regard.)

Yes indeed, I am thinking of Dic kens aptly named novel 'Great Expectations' and the inevitable unfulfillment that follows on from the array of phantom wants and needs that follow on from the delusional fear / advertisement based propaganda and put downs of the common man. Of course in the novel Great Expectations, Pip, the protagonist is eventually endowed with a higher status in life and self fulfillment, perhaps some kind of wisdom/character too. But it comes from the altruism of the convict 'Magwitch' who has been banished to Van Diemen's Land and not through the greasy fumbling finger pinching channels of figures in a respectable society. I somehow think therefore that Magwitch is a symbol of the unconscious, the untamed, the prodigal, the outcasted and the sinner. And so on. Thanks for the opportunity. I liked what you said there. The Great Expectations of the many and sad and wholly unrealistic reliance and expectation on the physiological manifestation.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Hello again, Joe - I am guessing you haven't heard and so don't know that members of 'soul groups' (who are therefore intimates in the deep sense of the word ) often reincarnate together as one another's parent, sibling, spouse, or child, and that as part of their 'soul-contract' they may pre-agree than one of them will 'die' 'early' so as to give the other(s) the opportunity to confront and overcome their own 'personal' spiritual 'dependencies' and 'grow' to be more integrally in touch and allied with The Flow Of Life Itself.

See https://www.soulproof.com/when-child-dies/ for example.

Thanks so much David. This is comforting of course and a great degree of solace contained therein your message. I have been experiencing some of these feeling recently, that Mr. Old soul deceased brother was paving the way in some senses at least. No doubt I was having these feelings before you mentioned it ..kinda random too. And I can rest assured that he was an old soul David, wise beyond years and fondly thought of by many, lots of charm and charisma hmmm and died young at the age of 20. Died in your land of birth and life, the USA, many miles from his land of birth, Ireland. I wont bore you with the details of his life but it wasn't ordinary. He had gotten into serious trouble at the age of 16, encountering some dark and malevolent forces within our community. He subsequently received a suspended prison sentence for a serious crime as the judge also saw what was happening/ self defence. Anyways he should probably not have been allowed into the USA with that on his record but is by the by. Went to see some cousins in chicago etc. Then of course he went travelling towards the Yucatan jungle apparently with hippies on a bus as you do !!!! lol Thanks David. sorry for burdening you. Anyways all rings through, old soul, deep lessons to be learned, good and evil intent etc. shall look forward to reading that article. Bless.

[no1wakesup]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Non-duality doesn't exist, because the polar opposite of non-duality is duality. And together they are duality. You cannot have only one side of a coin.

Yes...All that seeks operate from a state saturated in duality seeking only an imagined polarity of such (non duality, enlightenment). In doing so they expect to achieve what has only become another dreamt interpretation of IT. Here, a new state is reached, and of course, secretly assumes this new higher state belonging to someone still there.

You only imagine the "real" thing as the real thing, which is not it. And since its percieved as attainable in a mind saturated in duality, chase it in a unconscious and perpetual process. Of course, redundant asf. And around and around it goes. An upsurd path of course.

From the very beginning, you're set up for failure. Simply because there's nothing to gain or achieve and there is no one there to receive it. The irony.is that which you seek is already here. It is you, not in individuality but as essence. It is your very nature and its here right now.

So you dont parcel and piecemeal your ego away, you simply become aware, as acutely as possible, of the mechanical nature and process which personifies your reality. In the depth and quality of that awareness, there is a potential for a final shift (or the last shift, not of your control or doing) which collapses every concept, belief and relationship of your prior and anchored existence. It is this shift which collapses all of it's own accord like an invisible wind toppling the the first domino and setting off a chain reaction.

The minds approach will instead attempt to become aware of characteristics of that state (ultimate state) head on, and not finding anything relatable to grasp or identify with (as there is no other) makes up more spiritual story for its aresenal.

The common denominator with all that have authentically shifted was where an awareness observed the characteristics of the mechanism and realized ultimately that the awareness observing was primary. Awareness becomes aware of itself as authentic. This is the primary awareness or pure consciousness which allowed an encapsulates awareness (when the subject/object relationship was formed early on) a foundation for a new character and story.

Once that shift occurred, as realization and not by choice, belief or agreement, everything else unfolds. Here is where you see the thief in your home. Here, once awareness expands enough within, then any contraction or need to maintain a processed self, will no longer seem as threatening.

The mind will have you seeking away from what is already all essential and within you. And you cannot claim or identify with what you ARE. That paradox will remain securely in place as long as the assumption of finding more, in whatever modality of perciever personal value that entails, is no longer there.
Ultimately, there is no other anywhere. No one attains anything. Not even for the "spiritual ego" still there that believes it has attained something.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by no1wakesup

Yes...All that seeks operate from a state saturated in duality seeking only an imagined polarity of such (non duality, enlightenment). In doing so they expect to achieve what has only become another dreamt interpretation of IT. Here, a new state is reached, and of course, secretly assumes this new higher state belonging to someone still there.

You only imagine the "real" thing as the real thing, which is not it. And since its percieved as attainable in a mind saturated in duality, chase it in a unconscious and perpetual process. Of course, redundant asf. And around and around it goes. An upsurd path of course.

From the very beginning, you're set up for failure. Simply because there's nothing to gain or achieve and there is no one there to receive it. The irony.is that which you seek is already here. It is you, not in individuality but as essence. It is your very nature and its here right now.

So you dont parcel and piecemeal your ego away, you simply become aware, as acutely as possible, of the mechanical nature and process which personifies your reality. In the depth and quality of that awareness, there is a potential for a final shift (or the last shift, not of your control or doing) which collapses every concept, belief and relationship of your prior and anchored existence. It is this shift which collapses all of it's own accord, like an invisible wind toppling the the first domino and setting off a chain reaction.

The minds approach will instead attempt to become aware of characteristics of that state ultimate state) head on, and not finding anything relatable to grasp or identify with (as there is no other) makes up more spiritual story for its aresenal.

The common denominator with all that have authentically shifted was where an awareness observed the characteristics of the mechanism and realized ultimately that the awareness observing was primary. Awareness becomes aware of itself as authentic. This is the primary awareness or pure consciousness which allowed an encapsulates awareness (when the subject/object relationship was formed early on) a foundation for a new character and story.

Once that shift occurred, as realization and not by choice, belief or agreement, everything else unfolds. Here is where you see the thief in your home. Here, once awareness expands enough within, then any contraction or need to maintain a processed self, will no longer seem as threatening.

The mind will have you seeking away from what is already all essential and within you. And you cannot claim or identify with what you ARE. That paradox will remain securely in as long as the assumption of finding more, in whatever modality of perciever personal value that entails, is no longer there.
Ultimately, there is no other anywhere. No one attains anything. Not even for the "spiritual ego" still there that believes it has attained something.

There really is no big deal about trying to make distinctions to avoid talking from a position that is dualistic as though duality is a plague that has to be avoided at all costs. Oneness IS duality manifest, so is not disconnected from Oneness in any way, and 'we' are firmly within that duality. There is nowhere else for anything to be other than in duality, including all discussion, everything said or written, and the concept of nonduality itself.