Truth being personal

[Baile]

Originally Posted by happy soul

I take the view that truth is OBJECTIVE - it is what it is, regardless of one's belief or preference.

One's idea of truth is subjective, one's personal beliefs are subjective, one's perspective is subjective. But I don't see how truth itself can be a matter of personal opinion - things are what they are.

Very clear, very concise. So what this discussion is revealing, is that truth isn't personal. Truth is objective. Whereas people's beliefs and opinions are personal (subjective). And we can both uphold the idea of objective truth, and respect people's personal beliefs.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by happy soul

I think the question is, is truth OBJECTIVE, or SUBJECTIVE?

An objective perspective is one that is not influenced by emotions, opinions, or personal feelings - it is a perspective based in fact, in things quantifiable and measurable.

A subjective perspective is one open to greater interpretation based on personal feeling, emotion, aesthetics, etc.

Most everything posted online -- in fact most everything people claim as their freedom and right to believe and say -- falls under the category of subjective. There really is no question or argument here, it's very clear. Now, a question holding a bit more intrigue would be: Are peoples' religious beliefs, objective or subjective? I say that because religious people -- regardless of their personal-emotional connection to their belief tenets -- insist their religion is based upon quantifiable, measurable, historical fact. So the question/answer becomes much harder to untangle then.

[hallow]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hello,

Was reflecting upon truth. So going with some thoughts upon this.

Seen threads on it, debates about it, and reflections upon it.

What came to mind is that truth seems to be personal.
It appears in mind in relationship to what is understood, believed, makes sense, and/or resonates.

Sure, there are some truths in relationship to cause and effect. Such as if I touch something on fire, chances are will get burned.

More looking at what appears as personal
What comes to mind is what is found to be true with in.
What touches the spirit, heart, or brings spirit to mind.
Those truths that bring changes to life.
The truth found through experiences that may not always be able to explain or place in words.

Examples; a loved one visiting after he/she has departed from this realm
What may be felt from another without a word being spoken
Now I do understand the examples are some truths I hold and experience has brought such to me.

So, others hold truths as well.

So, wonder why the debates and conflicts, if truths lead to understanding and finding ways to connect? They can be what is shared or help find inner peace.

If not understood or experienced then is it meant for that person?

Now, if a truth is used/misused to gain control over another then is it a truth?

Find at times one has a truth to share and say and sometimes may be intimidated or shouted down (so to speak) to express it. Which reflects more upon the fear of one or group doing the shouting then upon the one speaking his/her truth.

Brings to mind; Speak your truth, even if your voice (or in this case, hands) shake.

What do you all think?

I feel spiritual "truth" is a very personal thing. With an endless number of beliefs and religions I don't think anyone of them is 100% right or wrong and they all have there own version of the "truth" many people will argue that one as I could argue with many. But at the end of the day what truth you fallow and inspires you is really what matters. I am learning too that "spiritually" as a hole is very individualized.

[happy soul]

Originally Posted by Baile

And we can both uphold the idea of objective truth, and respect people's personal beliefs.

That's very important imo, and something the world (humankind) really needs to learn, particularly in this day and age.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by happy soul

That's very important imo, and something the world (humankind) really needs to learn, particularly in this day and age.

And not just very important I would say, but absolutely critical in this day and age. So much of the chaos we see now is a result of the decline of objective understanding, being replaced by opinion as fact.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Baile

This is more or less the standard spiritual/new age position on truth. Interesting to me that religious people hold the exact opposite view. They believe truth is supreme and absolute, something only God dictates. .

I suppose Baile the question would be how would or could they know that to be true . This kinda question normally draws a blank face .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi daz,

Presenting my take on this.

As I live being this physical being, I exist.
What this physical being may form into may be influenced by many factors, genetics, past lives ( if one perceives these), social interactions, and self image.
Which seem to play into possible truths held in regards to self.

The image I may hold for myself may vary from that others hold. I have my knowing/truth, as do others. Others may sense or notice things about me that I may not notice or unwilling to acknowledge. All play into being this individual. At present hold a truth of some kind.

Outside of this physical person there is Spirit, which seems to be the continuing energy that flows and gives life. It is also being with in me.

When all said and done, this physical self will no longer be as this person. Others may still hold images of this self and may appear to another in that image held or known, ( in dreams/visitations) but it is just an image. As I can gather at this moment.

The two, knowing and being seem to interplay with each other, as I relate to these. Without me knowing, then would being be noticed? Without me knowing, it seems whatever it may be is still being, but may not be personal.

When identity (what is thought or created in the mind) is dropped, then can grasp there is just being. Without need to know or not.

But, what good is this to realize there may be or is nothing there? To reduce fear? To come to realize truth itself is but a fleeting moment? Does it help in better living life as this guy I'm being? Understand what I'm expressing in these questions. Just self reflecting a bit.

Not to prove you or anyone wrong, it is just for me it all intertwines. It is self, Ethreal, and both.

When I asked; Does I Am know itself? Playing with I Am being something to begin with. There is an I in the term so implies to me something is there. Another way of asking is it conscious of itself?

I know it is just a reference, but what exactly I Am refers to I don't know in the sense of defining it for everyone.

To me, I don't fully know, yet do through feeling presence there. Presence of Spirit/energy flowing, presence of others entering my life, presence of life around me.

Which in its own way makes it personal to me, forms a truth, but impersonal in the sense presence is just what is being with in and around me.

Your visitation seems very interesting. Did a quick search for Bernadetta Roberts. She seems like an interesting being.

I can relate that for something to come to mind there has to be something that reflects or becomes aware of it. May have been there all along, but perhaps the right moment comes along for it to be noticed or to be reflected.

Thank you for your insights

Some interesting thoughts M.G. as usual . Too much to comment on individually but the basic drift is that there is a sense of oneself and everything has to be reflected upon this sense .

When there is no sense of yourself then where has self gone .

Some will describe it as self being absorbed or dissolved into Source or it could be something else as you have mentioned that self has always been there all along, but the right moment comes along for self to be noticed or reflected .

I think in this instance one would need to understand the nature of self and the environment needed for self to entertain a sense or a reflection .

Many say the environment is the mind .

So beyond the mind in my eyes there is no reflection or thought of I AM . There cannot be the truth reflected or known .

The only way in my eyes to explain this, is that what you are is the Truth itself .

As soon as there is a knowing that I AM the truth it becomes a personal / individual / relative truth .

I think there are thin lines between losing a normal sense of self and still retaining an experience of the mind .

Deep sleep / Samadhi are examples I would say where the reflection of yourself is expansive and unlimited awareness which gives the impression / understanding of unity and oneness but still retains a sense / reflection of self as ONE .

The truth would be relative to I AM ONE .

Beyond that would be no relation to I AM ONE .



x daz x

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Baile

Very clear, very concise. So what this discussion is revealing, is that truth isn't personal. Truth is objective. Whereas people's beliefs and opinions are personal (subjective). And we can both uphold the idea of objective truth, and respect people's personal beliefs.

But personal only in the sense that mind identifies as a self. It’s conceptual and we can see this thru contemplation.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Some interesting thoughts M.G. as usual . Too much to comment on individually but the basic drift is that there is a sense of oneself and everything has to be reflected upon this sense .

When there is no sense of yourself then where has self gone .

Some will describe it as self being absorbed or dissolved into Source or it could be something else as you have mentioned that self has always been there all along, but the right moment comes along for self to be noticed or reflected .

I think in this instance one would need to understand the nature of self and the environment needed for self to entertain a sense or a reflection .

Many say the environment is the mind .

So beyond the mind in my eyes there is no reflection or thought of I AM . There cannot be the truth reflected or known .

The only way in my eyes to explain this, is that what you are is the Truth itself .

As soon as there is a knowing that I AM the truth it becomes a personal / individual / relative truth .

I think there are thin lines between losing a normal sense of self and still retaining an experience of the mind .

Deep sleep / Samadhi are examples I would say where the reflection of yourself is expansive and unlimited awareness which gives the impression / understanding of unity and oneness but still retains a sense / reflection of self as ONE .

The truth would be relative to I AM ONE .

Beyond that would be no relation to I AM ONE .



x daz x

It can, I believe, be known by direct experience. It is said that what you are objectively is doing what you are subjectively, either thru ignorance or directly.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Gem

It is made personal by the association of I under the notion that 'all this' is happening to me as 'my' experience. In my long meditation training the experience is viewed as not-me, my, mine, or I. As the 'I' ceases to be the central artifact unto whom this experience happens, there is noone there to react with aversion toward discomforts and craving for pleasures, and because this 'dynamic' comes to halt there is no more volition to perpetuate ego in time by running from displeasure while pursuing pleasure.






I think we just have to believe something, and believe in something, so as to make sense of the world and organise our lives, but in my case I already know all my beliefs are not true, so I give them little importance as being 'right'; hence I can't claim any personal truth. However, faxts such as all experience is temporary, or momentary, are not what I call belief - because it's true for all experience regardless of ones beliefs.

What you present brings to mind comparing it to entering a Forrest.
I become part of the Forrest, but not trying to be this. It just occurs.
I am not the Forrest itself and what goes on in the Forrest has very little, if anything to with me.

Things are noticed, movements sensed, there is the experience of being in the Forrest. All is impersonal in its happenings. The experience if held onto may become a personal experience or it can just pass as taking a wander into the Forrest and letting what arises with in or with out be. While in the Forrest there is only the Forrest and what creates it to be.

I can get if truth is something that may change with in the mind, then this too is temporary. In this sense it holds only what one may desire to hold. So, in this way forms into a belief and perspective. May be true at the moment, but only as felt needed, suppose.

Some things seem to hold its own truth and consistent in what it reveals or experienced. This seems to form a truth of its own.

Thanks for your insights. It expands the view for me.