Could spiritual teachings cause suffering and sadness?

We'd all throw our bits and shares.

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

What J says

That was too intriguing of you, BT.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi lemex,

Apparently God as undifferentiated Being, wanted to compassionately create from love, an infinite delight from the profusion of becoming and realizing that an ignorant multiplicity allows.


~ J

Want to thank you for taking the time to response. I have to say, at my present state, I say God's form of compassion sucks.....lol. But I do wonder what would happen if one saw that in the end and were not satisfied with it. Right now I guess I am a little too hard hearted. I am ok with it and I'm sure God is ok with it.

Agree to disagree. ( ie to get along )
I'm sure that's uprooted from above.

[FallingLeaves]

when I read that I thought, you actually have a healthy attitude, not trying to go to extremes to get this or that thing.

To try to find some balance with the way things are now rather than trying to make them the way they were in another time or place or for someone else seems more useful to me as well.

One of my dreams was to actually try to enjoy the time here rather than always trying to get to somewhere else that I wasn't already. So I've pushed aside some prospects that in my mind would have been very effective at achieving one goal or another if I had accepted them, in the name of 'having some kind of relationships with others'.

what you've seen is beautiful though, if it is like what I've seen. And it seems like there is a path, to balance the world against it. Maybe. Well I haven't got there yet and don't know either if I'm being led down the garden path with any supposed 'progress' I consider myself to have made (wolfish grin).

Still, I did learn that my dreams in the 'world' were more designed to get me an 'in' with others than they were to fulfill the dreams. And I also learned that such things get in the way of finding the thing I had seen. So I've kind of allowed the grip of that to lesson a bit, but at the same time I'm staying 'in' having found that I can learn valueable lessons just by doing the things that are set in front of me for doing. And well regardless of what I said before I *seem* to be making progress this way, so why mess with the food?

But I also learned, that more than my dreams of the world, and also all of my dreams of this thing I've seen, there is something even more valuable at stake. So at the moment I'm not really minding whether I get this or that done within the scope of this life, every day is just a day!

[UntoldStories]

To everyone who has taken their time to respond, thank you a thousand times! I appreciate it, sincerely! To know that you're not alone on this journey and that there are good-hearted people out there willing to help fills my heart with so much warmth and joy. Say what you want about the internet, but I think it's a great gift, and even though it comes with its dark sides, we need it now more than ever. I needed it.

Originally Posted by shivatar

Why do you think you need to give up your dream to experience enlightenment?

Once again, thank you for taking your time writing that post! Regarding this quote above, I guess it started when a much more "spiritually advanced" person told me that to become enlightened, I had to let go of everything that had to with success. I had to stop striving for success, and to me, that meant not chasing after my dream. I love what I do, but if I manage to make my dream a reality, most people will consider that success, and therefore I couldn't go after that.

And then I began seeing these "patterns" if you will. The spiritual people around me went to meditation retreats for long periods of time, some of them gave up their money, their western lifestyle. To me, it looked like they were indeed giving up the idea of success by western means. But of course, I don't know whether they had dreams like mine or not.

Anyway, that's how it started. Shortly after that, I quit my job, rented out my apartment, and moved to my grandfathers' house, located in a tiny but beautiful village surrounded by nature, to solely do what I like doing. But the idea of giving up success stuck with me. It kept nagging me from the back of my mind, and I felt as if I was doing the wrong thing. I love what I do, and I'm not in it for the success itself, but realizing my dream would be a tremendous success for me personally. You get the point.

Anyway, thanks for shedding some light on this concern of mine.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

No you're not lost but your head isn't as straight as it could be.

Thanks for helping me straighten it out!

Originally Posted by Melahin

Enlightenment is to know your dream, and live it happily ever after; not to give up on everything the universe abundantly pours into your lab. Let-go-ment comes from people who suffered in life, and have not found a proper way to enjoy life, so they find enjoyment in the simple things, and it is beautiful when it finds the right harmony. If we talk about Eastern philosophy, Tantra "prides" itself to be the teachings of the current age, and it is a way of not loosing yourself in indulgence, one of finding deep joy in every aspect of life... because the material world is the utmost manifestation of spirit, that which it finds most joy in... so maybe that is also where we will find it, if we find that loving, joyful harmony that nature has build into its way of life :smile

What a beautiful way of explaining this, thank you!

Originally Posted by Seawolf

Spiritual teachings can be good and helpful, but honestly I've found psychology to be much more powerful and freeing. Finding out what's really going on inside and taking care of ourselves leads to a spirituality with greater substance and depth.

Psychology is something I'm getting more and more interested in, thank you for your recommendation!

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi UntoldStories

Hi Jyotir, thank you for your reply! I'll definitely check out Sri Aurobindo's work!

Originally Posted by lemex

I've noticed you talk from the perspective of caring for others to. You look around and see all the pain out there for others.

I do care for others, and yes, I see a lot of pain when I look out into the world. I consider myself very privileged to be born in western society at this time. I imagine life was much more painful back in the days, and I know a lot of people still live in much more difficult situations than I do. But what is most sad is the pain we cause to each other, to both people and animals. Humanity has come so far, yet we're still only a cosmic embryo as Kurzgesagt put it. We are the ones bringing evil into this world, and we are the ones responsible for most of the suffering and pain. It doesn't have to be like that in 2018. We have the tools to do something about it. We are also responsible for making a change, and that is a revolution I want to be a part of. Maybe this is where east meets west and embrace each other?

Maybe off-topic, but for those who are interested in alternative social structures, check out Jacque Fresco.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

when I read that I thought, you actually have a healthy attitude, not trying to go to extremes to get this or that thing.

To try to find some balance with the way things are now rather than trying to make them the way they were in another time or place or for someone else seems more useful to me as well.

One of my dreams was to actually try to enjoy the time here rather than always trying to get to somewhere else that I wasn't already. So I've pushed aside some prospects that in my mind would have been very effective at achieving one goal or another if I had accepted them, in the name of 'having some kind of relationships with others'.

what you've seen is beautiful though, if it is like what I've seen. And it seems like there is a path, to balance the world against it. Maybe. Well I haven't got there yet and don't know either if I'm being led down the garden path with any supposed 'progress' I consider myself to have made (wolfish grin).

Still, I did learn that my dreams in the 'world' were more designed to get me an 'in' with others than they were to fulfill the dreams. And I also learned that such things get in the way of finding the thing I had seen. So I've kind of allowed the grip of that to lesson a bit, but at the same time I'm staying 'in' having found that I can learn valueable lessons just by doing the things that are set in front of me for doing. And well regardless of what I said before I *seem* to be making progress this way, so why mess with the food?

But I also learned, that more than my dreams of the world, and also all of my dreams of this thing I've seen, there is something even more valuable at stake. So at the moment I'm not really minding whether I get this or that done within the scope of this life, every day is just a day!

Thank you FallingLeaves!

Originally Posted by UntoldStories

Thanks for helping me straighten it out!

You're welcome. Quite honestly, I've never understood people who do all this 'should be the epitome of some Spiritual concept'. Tighten that loose screw down and follow your dreams.

The worst feeling in the world is sitting in your old age thinking "Would my dreams have worked out?"

[UntoldStories]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're welcome. Quite honestly, I've never understood people who do all this 'should be the epitome of some Spiritual concept'. Tighten that loose screw down and follow your dreams.

The worst feeling in the world is sitting in your old age thinking "Would my dreams have worked out?"

I can't speak for others, but when it comes to me, I believe it has to do with the fact that I'm quite young and I look up to these gurus and teachers that posses a significant amount of wisdom. I've always seen them as authoritative figures. If they think it's wise to do a particular thing, then so must I, cause they know best, right? I understand now, that's not how it works. I don't know why that is or why I do this. Maybe this is where psychology comes into the picture. It could have something to do with the fact that I've never been particularly good at standing up for myself, but I'm getting better at it the older I get, and it's something I practice on every day.

At least I found enough courage to ask this question, and I'm so thankful I did cause I feel I got a much better understanding of what this journey is all about. I'm a little wiser :)

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by lemex

I agree with the thought you have made and something to think about. Human flaws. But one can be too dark can they not?

The question is pain and suffering, yes. One suddenly realizes, whether in the light or dark one feels pain and so in the dark one can to. But using karma as a tool is imo not the real answer but in having the wisdom to be able to suffer as one suffers in any state. One cannot should not be so concerned with the self and not include others in doing what is done.

Let's talk about the dark. Of course from our perspective. I look into the world (news) and on seeing suffering, freely admit in compassion and suffering I do not like what I see happening and yes feel pain, not for me but others. Sometimes there is too much dark. There are people creating this pain and they are in the dark side. It bothers me that karma is used and not public response to me this is darkness to, to be silent. I've spoken about energy before and the rush mentioned but it must be tempered. It is important to look at it from both sides, not just one. Here's the thing, though I enjoy something another may or may not because it affects them. To me the affect is important and am I forcing it on another.

no I don't think something can be too dark because at some point everything transcends dark and light. it doesn't matter if a being starts out as the devil itself, if it evolves and transcends enough wherever it started is irrelevant.

dark and light only matter to us beings who are at the mercy and benefit of such beings.

I dont think of karma as a tool. rather it is a realization that there is balance in the universe, in everything we do at all times everything is perfectly balanced.

if you want to feel the suffering of others go ahead and put yourself down that path. however you can never know the entire truth of the suffering, maybe they all deserve it. that is for God to decide. I stopped looking at malice and forcing myself to feel terrible a long time ago, simply because I cannot know the truth of the situation. Instead I focus on the world that I can influence, the immediate environment which I have a great deal of influence and control over.

Again you said karma is a tool or some kind of weapon. I know there are many understandings of the phenomenon of karma. Mine is one, yours is one. There are many others too. IMO knowledge should alleviate suffering, not bring it on, so if your understanding is bringing to pain then you (just my opinion) should look into alternative understandings and see if they suit you and your experiences any better. after all knowledge has a higher purpose than drowning us in sorrow and misery.

[blossomingtree]

Hi Untold Stories

You can look into traditions like Zen (for example). There is a real need for people whom can integrate both the spiritual and material aspects of life into one - of course, it is much easier to manifest full enlightenment in cloistered grounds, but spirituality is just as if not more relevant in daily living life.

Blessings!
BT

Originally Posted by UntoldStories

I can't speak for others, but when it comes to me, I believe it has to do with the fact that I'm quite young and I look up to these gurus and teachers that posses a significant amount of wisdom. I've always seen them as authoritative figures. If they think it's wise to do a particular thing, then so must I, cause they know best, right? I understand now, that's not how it works. I don't know why that is or why I do this. Maybe this is where psychology comes into the picture. It could have something to do with the fact that I've never been particularly good at standing up for myself, but I'm getting better at it the older I get, and it's something I practice on every day.

At least I found enough courage to ask this question, and I'm so thankful I did cause I feel I got a much better understanding of what this journey is all about. I'm a little wiser :)

OK, her's a secret for you that puts everything into perspective and it's just between you and I. This is a Journey to Self; not to Spirituality, not to become anything other than ourselves and when you take it from that perspective it all makes sense.

Children dress up as adults because that's what they want to be, they think of themselves as they could be within their perceptions of adulthood. It's an exploration, a discovery, a part of the creation of their own identity. Wanting to be more, having that vision of being in 'their' shoes is quite natural - being the music/movie/fashion/Spiritual star. What they're looking for is something inside themselves, something they have yet to find. It's already there and it always has been, but what's missing is the Journey to where it's not. Call it Spiritual 'identity'.

Have your Journey but have your own Journey, and one day when you're 'Spiritually' old and grey you'll understand. You're not missing or lacking anything, you're full of potential so always keep that in mind. Wisdom is waiting for you to walk to it. Yes you did find the courage to ask, and interact with the feedback - double brave