Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Yes let go of habitual reactionary thinking, but do not let go of spiritual awareness, insights, experience based knowledge.

If one does not know the difference between awake consciousness and ego consciousness, they cannot be aware of which they are experiencing. If they have zero knowledge or awareness of which they are experiencing, they cannot choose one over the other.

This knowledge comes from insights. Insights are precedents, past experiential knowledge which is stored as knowledge in some type of memory or energy. Have you had experiences in emptiness or silence or local mind or whatever you call this stuff? Would you think abandoning all of this knowledge about different states of awareness would be good?

To me an insight comes from a direct experience in one sense, but that experience reveals something of nature, and that revelation transforms the person - changes you. In this sense the insight is different to learned knowledge, for a person can learn everything without being transformed, and a person can be transformed instantly in a 'light bulb moment'.

No because once you learn about yourself, have insights about yourself, this knowledge is then a part of you. It can change you and your experience.

Tru dat

It said "abandon all precedents." Spiritual experiences and insights are precedents. They are from the past and stored as knowledge. We use memories of past higher states of conscious to call them forward into the present.

I think 'abandoning precedents' was contextualised earlier with having a mind like the open sky.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Yes and when that teacher teaching incorrect things leads a huge group, then there is a huge group believing incorrect things.

Yes, that's true, and of course elements of Buddhism can be criticised, and of course it's fallacious to suppose it is a perfect religion. Ya gotta take the good with the bad. That's life.

[django]

The mind is the most subtle and hidden aspect of our relative condition, but it is not difficult to notice its existence. All one has to do is observe one's thoughts and how we let ourselves get caught up in their flow... The mind is the uninterrupted flow of thoughts which arise and then disappear... But beyond the mind, beyond our thoughts, there is something we call the "nature of the mind," the mind's true condition, which is beyond all limits. - Norbu

Thanks to you Rain I have read a little of Norbu. Norbu's ideas seem to be a Buddhist perspective that is soundly based in Buddhism. To say we are the stream of our thoughts is not Buddhism. To say we are "the nature of mind" beyond our thoughts as Norbu says is Buddhism.

To discover our "nature of mind" according to Norbu "the fundamental point is not to abandon or transform the relative condition, but to understand its true nature. To this end it is necessary to clear away all the misconceptions and falsifications we continually apply to ourselves."

I think you are saying something like this Jonesboy, but your conclusion that we are our thoughts very strongly suggests that you have not finished clearing away your misconceptions and falsifications.

When you can state with confidence that we are "the nature of mind" beyond thoughts, then I think you can claim that your understanding is equivalent to Buddhist understanding. Until then Norbu seems the better authority.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

The mind is the most subtle and hidden aspect of our relative condition, but it is not difficult to notice its existence. All one has to do is observe one's thoughts and how we let ourselves get caught up in their flow... The mind is the uninterrupted flow of thoughts which arise and then disappear... But beyond the mind, beyond our thoughts, there is something we call the "nature of the mind," the mind's true condition, which is beyond all limits. - Norbu

Thanks to you Rain I have read a little of Norbu. Norbu's ideas seem to be a Buddhist perspective that is soundly based in Buddhism. To say we are the stream of our thoughts is not Buddhism. To say we are "the nature of mind" beyond our thoughts as Norbu says is Buddhism.

To discover our "nature of mind" according to Norbu "the fundamental point is not to abandon or transform the relative condition, but to understand its true nature. To this end it is necessary to clear away all the misconceptions and falsifications we continually apply to ourselves."

I think you are saying something like this Jonesboy, but your conclusion that we are our thoughts very strongly suggests that you have not finished clearing away your misconceptions and falsifications.

When you can state with confidence that we are "the nature of mind" beyond thoughts, then I think you can claim that your understanding is equivalent to Buddhist understanding. Until then Norbu seems the better authority.

A being that has realized Nature of Mind still has conversations. To do so requires thoughts.

Are you only enlightened when sitting quietly or meditating? That would show that one hasn’t realized Buddha Nature because there are states of being you come and go from. It isn’t realized. Much like Ramana btw.

It is about clarity of those thoughts.

To understand your true nature you have to realize energy as an aspect of you.

Thoughts as flows is just a stage of void and form or energy which is what form is.

I experienced it for years before coming across this teaching. You can think of it as more just realizing the underlying energy of what thoughts really are.

Have you also noticed how everyone skips over clarity which is where real love and kindness comes from?

Clarity is an aspect of Buddha Nature just like energy and void.

. The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

Meditation and energy practices purpose is to help one realize ever deeper levels of clarity. They do so by meditation, silence allowing us to let go of our issues and fears. Energy practices is like a river that flows along stirring up the rocks so the dirt/issues an fears can be released into the silence of meditation. As we remove more and more obstructions we realize greater clarity of our true nature.

Our Primordial Nature has 3 Aspects. Void, energy and clarity.

[django]

Your understanding seems to be so focused on thoughts and their nature. The Buddhist perspective seems to be describing something quite fundamentally different -

"It's the 'empty aware presence' that defines the true nature of mind. It's not a thing but all things as appearances arise in it including thoughts, emotions, images, dreams, forms, perceptual colours, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations, and all experiences of every kind."

Emptiness in which thoughts are only one of the things that appear, not just the clarity of thought alone.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

Your understanding seems to be so focused on thoughts and their nature. The Buddhist perspective seems to be describing something quite fundamentally different -

"It's the 'empty aware presence' that defines the true nature of mind. It's not a thing but all things as appearances arise in it including thoughts, emotions, images, dreams, forms, perceptual colours, sounds, tastes, smells, sensations, and all experiences of every kind."

Emptiness in which thoughts are only one of the things that appear, not just the clarity of thought alone.

The topic of conversation has been around thoughts not emptiness. More the energy those flow shows how thoughts are energy who’s true nature is emptiness.

All those appearances that arise from your quote are what? Energy, who’s true nature is emptiness.

Even more all things arise from the mind itself, your body, this world all of it. It is all void=form.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

thoughts are energy who’s true nature is emptiness
.

I would disagree.

I was at a Buddhist web site yesterday and the writer went on and on about how thoughts are physical, not energy. The Buddhist web site said thoughts are as real as the chair we are sitting on.

This is observably true from a science standpoint as well because brain scans can show thoughts appearing in the brain.

You can read about it here:

Mind Aglow: Scientists Watch Thoughts Form in the Brain

When a single neuron fires, it is an isolated chemical blip. When many fire together, they form a thought. How the brain bridges the gap between these two tiers of neural activity remains a great mystery, but a new kind of technology is edging us closer to solving it.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-in-the-brain/

From my real life lived experience thoughts are real and thoughts are certainly not empty either. If I am washing dishes and the thought comes, "I hate washing dishes!" This thought creates a cascade of reality and effects. I "feel" the truth of this thought. I feel aversion to washing the dishes, I feel that I'd rather be doing something else. This very real and physical thought creates physical effects. The brain produces chemicals based on this thought to make it even more effectual on my experience.

Of course this thought contains no truth. It's a lie. There is no true difference between me washing the dishes or me being on the beach laying in the sun. The only thing that makes one better than the other is a thought.

But that's the thing. Do many people have the ability or wherewithal to not accept the "truth" or experience this thoughts presents? To question it? To observe the thought and ask, "What is making this an unpleasant experience besides this thought? Besides a lot of thoughts?"

Thoughts like, "OMG I got splashed with dirty dish water on my face! I hate this!" "I could be watching the world cup right now... can't believe I'm missing it cause of these dishes.." and on and on... all thoughts which we accept and believe which effect our moment to moment experience.

Thoughts are very real, very physical, and designed to create our experience.

Buddhism points to the truth that it is possible to be free of thoughts effects. We can learn to take our attention more and more off our thoughts and then they affect our experience and our actions and moods and all of that less and less.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Thoughts are energy and their nature is emptiness?
I would disagree.

I was at a Buddhist web site yesterday and the writer went on and on about how thoughts are physical, not energy. The Buddhist web site said thoughts are as real as the chair we are sitting on.

This is observably true from a science standpoint as well because brain scans can show thoughts appearing in the brain.

You can read about it here:



From my real life lived experience thoughts are real and thoughts are certainly not empty either. If I am washing dishes and the thought comes, "I hate washing dishes!" This thought creates a cascade of reality and effects. I "feel" the truth of this thought. I feel aversion to washing the dishes, I feel that I'd rather be doing something else. This very real and physical thought creates physical effects. The brain produces chemicals based on this thought to make it even more effectual on my experience.

Of course this thought contains no truth. It's a lie. There is no true difference between me washing the dishes or me being on the beach laying in the sun. The only thing that makes one better than the other is a thought.

But that's the thing. Do many people have the ability or wherewithal to not accept the "truth" or experience this thoughts presents? To question it? To observe the thought and ask, "What is making this an unpleasant experience besides this thought? Besides a lot of thoughts?"

Thoughts like, "OMG I got splashed with dirty dish water on my face! I hate this!" "I could be watching the world cup right now... can't believe I'm missing it cause of these dishes.." and on and on... all thoughts which we accept and believe which effect our moment to moment experience.

Thoughts are very real, very physical, and designed to create our experience.

Buddhism points to the truth that it is possible to be free of thoughts effects. We can learn to take our attention more and more off our thoughts and then they affect our experience and our actions and moods and all of that less and less.

Science would say thoughts are energy and that’s how they measure them.

Science also says everything is energy as well.

What is that chair? What is water? It is all energy.

String theory would say it is all connected or you could say of one essence. ;)

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Science also says everything is energy as well.

"Science" does not say that.

Energy, in physics, the capacity for doing work, it is abstract and cannot always be perceived. It may exist in potential, kinetic, thermal, electrical, chemical, nuclear, or other various forms. There are, moreover, heat and work—i.e., energy in the process of transfer from one body to another. Basically, "energy" is the force causing particles to move, it is not the particles themselves. Energy can exist in many different forms. All forms of energy are either kinetic or potential. The energy associated with motion is called kinetic energy. The energy associated with position is called potential energy. Potential energy is not "stored energy". Energy can be stored in motion just as well as it can be stored in position.

mat·ter

noun
1.
physical substance in general, that which occupies space and possesses rest mass, especially as distinct from energy. Particles have Mass!

Almost 99% of the mass of the human body is made up of six elements: oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus. Only about 0.85% is composed of another five elements: potassium, sulfur, sodium, chlorine, and magnesium. All 11 are necessary for life.

4th grade class in science and matter:
https://www.nyu.edu/pages/mathmol/te...tismatter.html

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What is water? It is all energy.

One molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms covalently bonded to a single oxygen atom. Water is a tasteless, odorless liquid at ambient temperature and pressure, and appears colorless in small quantities, although it has its own intrinsic very light blue hue.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

What is that chair?

The chemical composition of wood varies from species to species, but is approximately 50% carbon, 42% oxygen, 6% hydrogen, 1% nitrogen, and 1% other elements (mainly calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and manganese) by weight.