No experts on meditation

[Gem]

Originally Posted by A human Being

Gem, sorry mate but I don't have the time or the patience to carry on this conversation. I do still feel that you've buried issues that you don't think you can deal with, but ultimately only you'll know whether that's true or not; whatever the case may be, I wish you well and hope your situation improves.

Ok, but it's clear that your interest in Gem's story is the only story you create about gem, and not the real life story. I already knew that the volumous discourse on Gem was not a genuine interest in my life, nor was the pretense of well wishing a sincere expression of kindness.

I do understand how it appears to serves the narrators and why the narration is made, but we need not pretend that it's helpful to me. It just uses me.

I'm glad it's been shown that the real life narrative is not the subject of interest, because listening to the imposed narrative is tedium for me in the same way the real narrative is a tedium for you.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by rideforever

This is true. A technique can only be a beginning. Meditation is reality. Reality has no technique.

That's the basic thing with it, that life is happening now, and meditation is intrinsically a part of living. This doesn't exclude systematic practice; it only goes to say that meditation was there before practice began and continues after one fininshes their practice. The benefits of practice, however, are numerous and well documented, so it's safe to say that meditation practice is beneficial to quality of live.

"A technique is when you use one thing to do another thing".
All this doing can have value, but it can not be being.
There is a sense in many traditions of trying to create "something".
But who is the one who is creating ?
And what is the relationship of what is created, to the creator ?
Are you not within what you create ?
Being is what is missing.

Sure, because when the practice becomes the means to the end, the activity of practice becomes a secondary thing, thus making the practice unimportant in itself. A meditation practice is important in itself and it isn't the means to an end. Like they say, it's the journey and not the destination.

For humans on the path the words "presence", "awareness". "being", "mindfulness", "awakening", "enlightenment" etc.... these words are used a lot, but with no clarification of what they actually mean. It is obvious that people mean different things.

Exactly. There are terms which pertain to the present, like presence, being and mindfulness and there are goal orientated words like awakening and enlightenment. People will apply the words to their own life in their own way, but terms that pertain to the present are of greater relevance than goal orientated words. We also hear the word 'truth' a lot, ans it's important to see in the spiritual context that 'truth' is not knowledge, The present is not memory, and hence, there are no experts on meditation.

Furthermore, the humans who are deemed to be "awakened" are reporting vastly different experiences and conceptions of reality. Are they in one place or not ? Again no-one is checking.

Well, this is a contentious issue, but in the meditation, there is no enlightened or unenlightened or asleep and awake people. There is really only this experience as it is now. This infers that meditation and awareness are not different or apart, so 'distraction', at a more fundamental level, means losing awareness of being here in this moment... The 'ego' doesn't like being here now, because the thought of self only exists in time... yet the presence of self only exists momentarily.

All this points to the depth of darkness within which humans try to help themselves.

Also we can say that the spiritual paths here are inefficient. Very few seekers reach a stage they deem "awakened". How many ? 0.01%. That is very low.

To have a tradition is to have something of the past. But reality is now. The past might help, but it must also be discarded.

There are few teachers who are able to discriminate such matters. Most repeat the past.

It is not answers one needs, but new questions.

Tru dat, but it is shown that meditation practice is a healthy and benefical undertaking, so I'd never discourage it and do engage in it myself, however I am aware that many instructors make promises of the future goal, and practitioners envisage an imaginary 'enlightened me' off in the future. It's actually very obvious that the self is right here, though, and there's nothing enlightened or unenlightened about it.

My basic summary is, if we are talking of meditation, it's only real if we are actually present while we talk. It really doesn't matter what we talk about, actually...

[rideforever]

IMO : it is not true that there is just this experience now. Because intelligence is available and it changes everything. We have that degree of free will to choose to face ourselves or learn how to engage our intelligence and it does change things.

The universal self - tao - god - reality ... whatever you call it ... is universal and perhaps always has been.

But we are individuated from it. We are not god - if we were we could do anything, and we cannot.

On the path humans go through major changes. What changes ?

Well it is not the tao, as that is the all.
It is not the ego as that is false.
It is in fact something else ... that is the soul.

The soul is created from a humans courage to enter the tao. It is new.

We live in an existence with aspects that are Dual and other aspects Non-dual. It does not fit conveniently into language, where things are black or white. Things are both black and white actually.

Although in general humans mix up these words without noticing it, and in general "enlightened masters" do not check if they are in the same place as the "enlightened master" next door ... that does not mean it cannot be done.

It can be done, but few do it.

For a human being to move beyond the mind is such a leap and relief that most do not bother doing much afterwards. They just sit on the podium. Often not really understanding what just happened, except that they feel relief.

They say things like I am God or I am nothing or I don't exist ... whilst eating a very human lunch !!!

Hopefully a new kind of meditator is emerging that can be more intelligent.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by rideforever

IMO : it is not true that there is just this experience now. Because intelligence is available and it changes everything. We have that degree of free will to choose to face ourselves or learn how to engage our intelligence and it does change things.

I think free will is a bit over-rated, and I can't seem to determine what I'll be thinking in even a minute from now, or in ten seconds, and all I have is this currently changing thought. My agency of will seems to be in how I respond to what is happening right now, which might be a mindful response or a compelled reaction, depending on the quality of my self awareness. There's the issue of creation vs. destiny or action vs. consequence; willfulness vs willingness... which to me, is a mystery.

The universal self - tao - god - reality ... whatever you call it ... is universal and perhaps always has been.

Zakly, and it's portrayed as a constant as I have been present while the experience has passed by. Or maybe better said that awareness endures the changing experience.

But we are individuated from it. We are not god - if we were we could do anything, and we cannot.

I don't go in for God... so that's a tricky one... I don't think we can do anything really and if there is a God I don't think He does anything either. My primal belief is that the spiritual life is 'know self' ... and self is known right now.

On the path humans go through major changes. What changes ?

Well it is not the tao, as that is the all.
It is not the ego as that is false.
It is in fact something else ... that is the soul.

The soul is created from a humans courage to enter the tao. It is new.

We live in an existence with aspects that are Dual and other aspects Non-dual. It does not fit conveniently into language, where things are black or white. Things are both black and white actually.

Right, and I call this the in-between... or the balance... or the equanimity

Although in general humans mix up these words without noticing it, and in general "enlightened masters" do not check if they are in the same place as the "enlightened master" next door ... that does not mean it cannot be done.

It can be done, but few do it.

For a human being to move beyond the mind is such a leap and relief that most do not bother doing much afterwards. They just sit on the podium. Often not really understanding what just happened, except that they feel relief.

They say things like I am God or I am nothing or I don't exist ... whilst eating a very human lunch !!!

Hopefully a new kind of meditator is emerging that can be more intelligent.

I'm pretty sure that meditation encompasses the whole life-form; mind body and spirit... which is why I still advocate practice while also advocating immediacy. I'm of the persuasion that the pure awareness of the observation itself, which is obviously immediate, will pervade throughout the mind and body and the entire life-form will be 'brought to light'. The pure awareness observation isn't a process, it's so obviously current, but the deepening that becomes conscious of intricacy of the mind/body and brings it to conscious whole, is a progression or a life path.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by rideforever

We are not god - if we were
we could do anything, and we cannot.

And it is thoughts exactly like these that keep the paper chains of
ego's best inventions...doubt, repeatedly confirming unbelievabilty and limitations...
tightly firm in minds.

The human spirit, that is powerful and unlimited, made in the image of God,
is kept in a jar like a lightning bug
with these thoughts and unbeliefs...when the real
'bug' in this scenario should be squashed.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by Gem

Nor was the pretense of well wishing a sincere expression of kindness.

It was. Are you second-guessing me, you who doesn't like to be second-guessed?

[rideforever]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

And it is thoughts exactly like these that keep the paper chains of ego's best inventions...doubt, repeatedly confirming unbelievabilty and limitations...tightly firm in minds.
The human spirit, that is powerful and unlimited, made in the image of God,
is kept in a jar like a lightning bug with these thoughts and unbeliefs...when the real'bug' in this scenario should be squashed.

This spirit is good but the intelligence is weak.
It is true that your potential is to grow into a great being.
But that great being is not god.
If you have an incorrect vision of existence it will hinder you.
In fact to say "I am God" is really just the ego again.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by A human Being

It was. Are you second-guessing me, you who doesn't like to be second-guessed?

You're interested with your figment of Gem and haven't shown any interest in the real person and you went on post after post building the image of Gem with so many deficiencies. So... well wishes on the tail end of the derisive Gem narrative doesn't seem genuine, and thus I have good reason to doubt the integrity of it, and Frankly, after hearing the psycho-pathological narrative, I don't care if you wish me well or tell me to go to hell.

[wstein]

Back somewhere near the topic please. If you want to discuss who thinks what about who, start a new thread.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by wstein

Back somewhere near the topic please. If you want to discuss who thinks what about who, start a new thread.

I think when I am narrated it appears that I narrate others, but I don't, the narrative is a one way street, and the traffic is going the wrong way. The story of a person should come from them and go to the listener, and not come from someone else and go to that person.

I[ve already tested it by answering any personal inquiry, but people aren't interested in my story. I'm not actually an interesting subject.

Anyway, it doesn't matter what the subject is. The conversation isn't informative... it's like listening to the sound of a stream... it says nothing in particular, but is somehow meaningful. I think there's 'another kind of learning', like one can learn something subtle from listening to a stream... even though it provides no information.