can anyone answer this?

[Jack of Spades]

Originally Posted by Starlight

We are all here to 'talk' about the ideas, views and beliefs regarding the question. Its important to respect what people say whether you believe it or not. We all have different life experiences and reasons for things, so to make assumptions is not really very fair. The person you were debating with earlier is not a novice regarding this subject. Indeed, he sounds like he has quite a bit of experience in such matters. Just because they do not match what your beliefs are, do not dismiss it as 'a rant'. It is not 'ranting' to explain what you are trying to say because someone completely jumped to conclusions about you without knowing the facts first. Also he has not asked you to take anything as truth, he is explaining his own experiences in this discussion, as we all are, what you choose to believe is entirely up to you. This is a discussion, not to point score.

Thanks. You know, if I ever need a virtual defense lawyer around this forum, I'm gonna ask you to represent me!

Originally Posted by Starlight

"God is everywhere,he sees everything, nothing is hidden from his view"...this is laughable really, in the sense that God asks enough question in the bible to say that this is not true, not least in Gen 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is!!

I think this one actually does have a valid explanation. It's simply God's way to bring the topic up, rather than to actually ask Cain for information. This is evident in the text itself, because later on in the discussion, God reveals that he already knew the truth.

I can't think of any place in the Bible where God would both ask a question and the situation would imply that he doesn't already know the answer. Have any such verses in mind?

I have a question of my own: What was the point of Noah's flood? God murdered almost everyone on the planet but failed to achieve his stated goal, which was to remove sinners from the earth. That's a pretty ineffective and violent attempt, one would think God could do better.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Starlight

We are all here to 'talk' about the ideas, views and beliefs regarding the question. Its important to respect what people say whether you believe it or not. We all have different life experiences and reasons for things, so to make assumptions is not really very fair. The person you were debating with earlier is not a novice regarding this subject. Indeed, he sounds like he has quite a bit of experience in such matters. Just because they do not match what your beliefs are, do not dismiss it as 'a rant'. It is not 'ranting' to explain what you are trying to say because someone completely jumped to conclusions about you without knowing the facts first. Also he has not asked you to take anything as truth, he is explaining his own experiences in this discussion, as we all are, what you choose to believe is entirely up to you. This is a discussion, not to point score. You probably have some good ideas to bring to the table here, why not explain why you think I don't have a point with the contradictions I have mentioned earlier on in the thread. Can you explain them. I am genuinely interested in your opinion. Here is just one of many contradictions: Please explain why God makes a point of saying that vengeance is for himself to give out only, then further on her tells Moses to 'Seek vengeance'

"God is everywhere,he sees everything, nothing is hidden from his view"...this is laughable really, in the sense that God asks enough question in the bible to say that this is not true, not least in Gen 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is!!

I am sure people will have answers for this but it speaks for itself, all joking side....Someone can not claim to be omniscient then ask someone such a question...do you see why people question?
Kind Regards

Here is an interesting situation. No?

When I peruse the other religion sub forums, and threads, where are the people demeaning and denouncing those Faiths? And in disaffected and hateful manner?
Especially in the Islamic forum, at this time period, and day.
Take a look and see if you note any.

So what are people like this in the Christian subforum, such as, "Jack", and their aliases... doing? Acting in such a manner?
And?
What does this type of activity, and behavior, reveal..?
What does this tell us about them?

Well, for one?
The devil, formerly Lucifer, the Archangel who committed high treason, who rebelled and brought down a third of the angelic with him, knows full well the efficacy and the power of The Truth, involving the shed blood of the Lamb of God, Who's shed blood for sins sets free countless many, and Who's saving power redeems those same back to God.
Again... as long prophesied through the ages of the writings, regarding the future coming Messiah and Savior.
Which are confirmed more and more lately by finds such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Discovered and revealed to the world in 1948.
Which validates and confirms to us the validity of the ancient writings.

But then, what of the health... and mindset, of those who are here declaring the Almight a "hater"... and doing so in hateful manner?

Despite the evidence to the contrary, offered?

Of course, there would be a response of, "free speech!", and "we have a right!".
But, acknowledging that, the question remains, and should be examined, and attended to.

Buddha also had alot to say about these things, regarding what is whole, stable, and unchanging, compared to what we observe in, "the world".
The mayhem, chaos, and change which we see...
And?
What does the Word of God tell us about who the author of all this is?

Which was rather well illustrated in the Wachowski's movie, "The Matrix".

[davidsun]

A "hell of a good" excerpt from Chapter 19, Creating Hell and Sinners, of Nick Bunick's book, titled Time for Truth:

Hell

Two thousand years ago, most people believed that the sky had a huge blue plate above it all and heaven was beyond that plate. That's why they spoke of angels ascending or descending between Earth and the celestial realm, since heaven was above the sky, on the other side of the plate. And the stars at night were holes on the bottom of the plate, allowing the light in heaven to shine through.

Two thousand years ago, the area southwest of the walls of Jerusalem was known as the Valley of Hinnom. Here are the people of Jerusalem created a dump where the population of more than 400,000 had their garbage delivered, and it burned 24 hours a day. This dump was called spell Gehenna. If a mother got angry at her child, she would threaten to send the child two Gehenna as punishment. And that English translation of the Hebrew word Gehenna is "hell." That is where Christianity got the concept of hell. If heaven is above the sky, then hell must surely be billowed the earth.

The early leaders of the church needed this hell that they created. It was the place they could use to frighten those who didn't abide by their rules and regulations: if people didn't believe in what their religion was preaching, God would punish them and they'd go to hell. How many people over the last two millennia have been threatened and "damned" to the hell that these leaders created? How many children's minds have been damaged by the threat of God's punishment in the afterlife?

A few months after The Messengers {Bunick's first book} was released, I was giving a talk in the sanctuary of the beautiful headquarters of the Unity Church in Missouri. When I was through with my presentation, which lasted 3 hours, I stepped off the stage to do signings for those who had brought a copy of the book with them. At one point a handsome young man in glasses, wearing slacks and a sport shirt, stood before me with tears streaming down his face. He told me he was a Catholic priest, and he knew everything it said that date to be true and didn't know what to do. He also told me that if I looked in the Catholic Bible Dictionary, I would find that the definition of Gehenna was quote " hell," as I had described based on my past-life memory while under hypnotic regression. It told him to continue teaching what he knew was the truth, and not what he didn't believe in, as there were many good things that Catholic Church does for those in need, as well as many benefits to communal worship, in spite of the mistruths that are preached.

When I got home the next day, I did look in my Catholic Bible, which contains a dictionary, and as the young priest had told me, Gehenna is defined as "hell."

On the cover of the January 31, 2000, edition of U.S. News & World Report, there was a picture of the devil smiling with a cocktail in his hand; behind him a man and woman in bathing suits lounged in chairs on a slab of rock, with fire on all sides of them. The headline read: " Hell: A New Vision of the Netherworld."

Inside the issue was a five-page article citing a poll stating that 64% of the people who had been asked believed in hell. In the article, Pope John Paul II was quoted as telling an audience at the Vatican that held indicates the state of mind of " those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God." In other words, hell is not a place, but a state of being in which people suffer from the deprivation of God in their lives.

The article stated that the conservative critics at the Vatican complained that by dousing hell's flames, the Pope had undermined the historical biblical weapon in the Catholic Church's struggle against evil. Of course, that Pope was trying to bring the Church into the 21st century, but it's obvious that those who actually manage and control the affairs of the Vatican were successful in refuting his position and have kept that Church mired in its medieval beliefs. And after all, without a hell, where is the devil, another creation of Christianity, going to call home?

If indeed this fabrication of the church were actually true, this would mean that our God is a punishing God, and a sinful person upon death is consigned to eternal damnation without ever having an opportunity for redemption or atonement. This is why reincarnation is in such conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church, which wants you to believe that salvation and redemption can only be accomplished through its intervention. The truth is that reincarnation provides the opportunity to continue on your journey to become at one with God, climbing the stairs of the pyramid on the way to the top, the timing for your actions that her to others, and receiving forgiveness.

I leave it to readers of this to check out Nick Bunick's book listings if their curiosity leads them to do so. They contain a great deal of very educational, factual as far as I can tell, information relating to 'Christianity', I assure you.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

So what are people like this in the Christian subforum, such as, "Jack", and their aliases... doing? Acting in such a manner?
And?
What does this type of activity, and behavior, reveal..?
What does this tell us about them?

I would suggest that they have already spoken to this question and that it is you who asks it because you don't want to 'hear' and 'believe' what they say to be true. Starlight, Jack of Spades, and I at least each has an extensive background 'in' Christianity, at least we have read and thought deeply about what's in the Bible and see great truth and goodness as well as distortions of truth and goodness 'written' therein.

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by Jack of Spades

Thanks. You know, if I ever need a virtual defense lawyer around this forum, I'm gonna ask you to represent me!



I think this one actually does have a valid explanation. It's simply God's way to bring the topic up, rather than to actually ask Cain for information. This is evident in the text itself, because later on in the discussion, God reveals that he already knew the truth.

I can't think of any place in the Bible where God would both ask a question and the situation would imply that he doesn't already know the answer. Have any such verses in mind?

I have a question of my own: What was the point of Noah's flood? God murdered almost everyone on the planet but failed to achieve his stated goal, which was to remove sinners from the earth. That's a pretty ineffective and violent attempt, one would think God could do better.

Yes, I stand corrected and see your point. It has been a while since I read the bible in full. There are however a few things that God does say in various ways as to question or not know. Gen 18:20-21 this stated that God would "go down to see what they had done". Numbers 22:9-11, God asks "who are these men with you?" From what I can see there are questions that could be taken either way in the bible. Some (most, I agree) are obvious that God has asked the question as a teaching and lesson but there are a few that are questionable.

Regarding Noah and the flood: I agree with what you say...
None of it rings true to me. God sent the flood because the world had gone wrong and he wanted to get back goodness. He then regretted it. So here we have a God who Killed everyone outside of the Ark (including innocent animals, it matters not that he saved 2 of each, what about the others?) he then says he will not do it again. It proves that god made a mistake. If people were wicked and bad why did he not help and forgive? I ask, if all human life is precious to the lord and he cares, why did he not send someone or something to help them at that time instead of murdering them all including innocent children? I know there are arguments around this but Im not sure I agree with a lot of the points that will undoubtedly be made.
I am still humble in my views on this all. I have a lot to learn but do not regret asking questions. If someone makes a point that changes my mind I will openly admit it. Thanks

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Here is an interesting situation. No?

When I peruse the other religion sub forums, and threads, where are the people demeaning and denouncing those Faiths? And in disaffected and hateful manner?
Especially in the Islamic forum, at this time period, and day.
Take a look and see if you note any.

So what are people like this in the Christian subforum, such as, "Jack", and their aliases... doing? Acting in such a manner?
And?
What does this type of activity, and behavior, reveal..?
What does this tell us about them?

Well, for one?
The devil, formerly Lucifer, the Archangel who committed high treason, who rebelled and brought down a third of the angelic with him, knows full well the efficacy and the power of The Truth, involving the shed blood of the Lamb of God, Who's shed blood for sins sets free countless many, and Who's saving power redeems those same back to God.
Again... as long prophesied through the ages of the writings, regarding the future coming Messiah and Savior.
Which are confirmed more and more lately by finds such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Discovered and revealed to the world in 1948.
Which validates and confirms to us the validity of the ancient writings.

But then, what of the health... and mindset, of those who are here declaring the Almight a "hater"... and doing so in hateful manner?

Despite the evidence to the contrary, offered?

Of course, there would be a response of, "free speech!", and "we have a right!".
But, acknowledging that, the question remains, and should be examined, and attended to.

Buddha also had alot to say about these things, regarding what is whole, stable, and unchanging, compared to what we observe in, "the world".
The mayhem, chaos, and change which we see...
And?
What does the Word of God tell us about who the author of all this is?

Which was rather well illustrated in the Wachowski's movie, "The Matrix".

No one here has been hateful in any way. Only questions have been asked here. Questions I might add that have been dodged/ignored. I refer again to my earlier question on vengeance? If I can not answer something I will admit it, and say 'I can not answer your point. This is open discussion. I do not disrespect you I am happy to hear views. My Sundays and Thurdays in the congregation in the past have served me for the good too you know. I have met some wonderful people..but I have to walk my own path if things don't seem right.

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Here is an interesting situation. No?

When I peruse the other religion sub forums, and threads, where are the people demeaning and denouncing those Faiths? And in disaffected and hateful manner?
Especially in the Islamic forum, at this time period, and day.
Take a look and see if you note any.

So what are people like this in the Christian subforum, such as, "Jack", and their aliases... doing? Acting in such a manner?
And?
What does this type of activity, and behavior, reveal..?
What does this tell us about them?

Well, for one?
The devil, formerly Lucifer, the Archangel who committed high treason, who rebelled and brought down a third of the angelic with him, knows full well the efficacy and the power of The Truth, involving the shed blood of the Lamb of God, Who's shed blood for sins sets free countless many, and Who's saving power redeems those same back to God.
Again... as long prophesied through the ages of the writings, regarding the future coming Messiah and Savior.
Which are confirmed more and more lately by finds such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Discovered and revealed to the world in 1948.
Which validates and confirms to us the validity of the ancient writings.

But then, what of the health... and mindset, of those who are here declaring the Almight a "hater"... and doing so in hateful manner?

Despite the evidence to the contrary, offered?

Of course, there would be a response of, "free speech!", and "we have a right!".
But, acknowledging that, the question remains, and should be examined, and attended to.

Buddha also had alot to say about these things, regarding what is whole, stable, and unchanging, compared to what we observe in, "the world".
The mayhem, chaos, and change which we see...
And?
What does the Word of God tell us about who the author of all this is?

Which was rather well illustrated in the Wachowski's movie, "The Matrix".

I am intrigued as to your reference to the movie The Matrix. It is based on ancient Gnostic ideas. Many Gnostics believe that the god of the Old
Testament (the entity that advocated sacrifices and murder as well as mutilation) was a demonic entity. They see the Jesus of the New Testament as from the true spiritual universe. However they believe his message has been distorted over the centuries and the dogmas of most modern day Christians are quite different from his original teachings, which were closer in spirit to those of the Budda and other enlightened beings. I am just explaining others views here on the subject. Its interesting

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by davidsun

A "hell of a good" excerpt from Chapter 19, Creating Hell and Sinners, of Nick Bunick's book, titled Time for Truth:

I leave it to readers of this to check out Nick Bunnick's book listings if their curiosity leads them to do so. They contain a great deal of very educational, factual as far as I can tell, information relating to 'Christianity', I assure you.

So, apparently his reasoning appeals to you.
Now let me explain something, involving the conclusions of modern Physics since Einstein.

The "world", in which we find ourselves, and in this "organic" situation, "davidson"?
1. Temporary.

2. A, "State of Being". But instinctively, there is no way to tell it's not real.

Well consider this.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Starlight

I am intrigued as to your reference to the movie The Matrix. It is based on ancient Gnostic ideas. Many Gnostics believe that the god of the Old
Testament (the entity that advocated sacrifices and murder as well as mutilation) was a demonic entity. They see the Jesus of the New Testament as from the true spiritual universe. However they believe his message has been distorted over the centuries and the dogmas of most modern day Christians are quite different from his original teachings, which were closer in spirit to those of the Budda and other enlightened beings. I am just explaining others views here on the subject. Its interesting

There may be certain agreements between traditional Christianity, and Gnosticism.
Doesn't mean their conclusion about the Almighty is correct.
It is a "street view", perception, in time and space, as opposed to a, "satellite view", from eternity.

So, I have been posting about how after the perfect law was given through Moses, the Lord went about establishing the atoning rituals and practices, because people aren't perfect.
This involves the love of God for mankind.
Which foundation Jesus was the fulfillment of, going to the cross for us.

But if someone is going to continue asking "Why", "Why", as a child would, forestaying the reception of salvation in the doing, then there is something wrong and they are probably not among those predestined thereto.

Regarding questions about Noah and the Flood? You weren't there! How do you know how dreadful and despicable mankind was? Although today, and in the global community, I'm thinking that we've approached that condition, from what I see, and hear in the News.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

So, apparently his reasoning appeals to you.
Now let me explain something, involving the conclusions of modern Physics since Einstein.

The "world", in which we find ourselves, and in this "organic" situation ... a, "State of Being". But instinctively, there is no way to tell it's not real.

Yes, but a 'state' of mind is something which is 'in' 'you' and so implicitly is something which yu have the power to change, more so at least than a 'place' that 'you' are 'in' (locked into by some 'outer' God).

In one view, you are powerful enough to be self-(experience)-directing, both suffering and learning to do/be 'better' as a result of 'your' mistakes. In the other 'you' are being 'rewarded' or 'punished' by an 'outer' 'ruler' on the basis of whether you worship, are obedient to, and please him by doing what he wants you to do.

The Old Testament and Book of Revelation idea of 'God' is of the latter kind, I think. Jesus's idea of God is that he is like a loving, patiently forgiving father, always ready to welcome you 'back' no matter how far you stray from him. Such a (Jesus-idea) God-figure would never consign anyone any aspect of his creation to be punished in hell for all eternity or tormented and burnt to ashes there (that's just what I think[/u]!). Many Christians (like you?) do not follow Jesus's (idea of) God because they 'buy into' the (idea of) God portrayed in the Old Testament and in the Book of Revelation - the latter claims to truly aligned with Jesus, but there's no 'proof' of that - it just puts someone else's words in his (Jesus') mouth and present someone else's 'vision' as being his (that's just my opinion).