Was Primordal man Conscious?

Originally Posted by Time

Ok, so, now that ive had some time to think about this, ive been wondering about this in some ways...

Ill use the example of art. Look at cave paintings from 30 000 years ago, and compare them to art/pictographs in the 10 000 yr old structure gobleki tepe. There is a marked difference and evolution in the art.

Now, compare that to early mediterranian art, like the minoans, and mycaneans. There is also a marked evolution. The things depicted are more 3 d with more detail.

The same time was egypt, with their 2 d representations, yet they still have a marked evolution compared to their older stuff.

Sumarian art and babylonian are a mic between these 2 it seems...

Now once you enter the roman age, the figures painted and carved are much, much more realistic, then by the time you reac the middle ages, and rennisance, the art is super realistic, with 3 dimentional realism...

Once we get into the 1800s to present, we go beyond realism in to surrealism....

Art in itself is something that almost anyone can do with training, although it does take someone with a natural talent to be able to make very realistic art, and "proper" art. The thing that ive always thought, is that for some reason, it may have to do with our perceptions of reality, and or awareness, and I guess some people would call it their consciousness. The evolution of our art, may be evidence of our evolution of the mind over the last 30 000 years.

Just a thought...

That's very interesting. Yet I do have to wonder if it relates to available technology of the times? I am no art history expert but it seems logical to assume that very little art created 30000 years ago was created with materials that would stand the test of time? Of course then you can argue that modern man has the intelligence to create more lasting art materials.
Yet, I wonder how much of the art from the past 500 years will still be around 30000 years in the future? Heck, what if future civilizations conclude we weren't all that advanced because all that's left is tupperware and plastic bottles?

As an aside, you may be interested in a National Geographic article a few months ago about gobleki tempe. It makes a case that it wasn't emerging agriculture that influenced where that site was placed, but rather, emerging religion, which in turn led agriculture to develop to feed the pilgrims traveling to the site.

Originally Posted by mickiel

No, I am not into scientology. But I do believe that a conscious people will leave some kind of history that their future generate can trace. I mean thats what history of humans is really; tracking the consciousness of our past. Primordal humans lived perhaps millions of years, and yet its as if they left no trace of anything reasonable; its like tracking an animal through history , an animal that left no signs of conscious thinking. Just menial physical things of little significance.

There has to be a credible reason for this; I think its because they were not conscious as we are. Oh they had brains, but consciousness is again, not a physical thing. It has no location within the human body that science has found. Its just there.

Have you considered that the Garden of Eden represents primordial humans? The state for millions of years before "consciousness" (by your definition) arose.

In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were ignorant, innocent and lived in harmony with nature and with God. Everything is going on just swimmingly; it's paradise, no? They have everything they need. They want for nothing. They walk around shamelessly naked. They are.... just like... animals. Pets. God's pets?

Then they are given a choice, to eat from the tree of knowledge, or not. As soon as they decide to eat, they are thrown from paradise.

So let's think this through. I will agree that the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory for an evolutionary leap in human brain development. If you want to call it "consciousness," okay let's run with that. They ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Suddenly, they had Knowledge. What's more, they also had free will -- as they were given a choice to eat or not to eat.

But God threw them out of paradise... so...... If that is the case, would one say consciousness is desirable in the eyes of God? That modern man, with all his consciousness, is superior to primordial man?

You can answer that for yourself.

My answer is that God is more clever than that. God gave Adam and Eve a bigger brain, and powers to be like God himself, with free will and power to create and destroy. That was the whole intention. Then God cast Adam and Eve out of paradise, just like a parent kicking the baby birds out of the nest so they learn to fly.

And ever since, instead of creating a paradise of our own, we've been hell-bent on destroying it completely. Using up every available resource. And yes, leaving behind a historical record of our existence, which, essentially, amounts to ever burgeoning piles of trash and pollution. All the while, many of us sitting around waiting and praying for God to come back and help us clean up our own mess, or disparaging God for not caring. Because that's what immature people do -- they cast around to find blame, or a savior, or an authority figure, and never take responsibility for their own actions. You know what God wants? He wants us to grow the F up already. And proof we are adults is taking care of this planet we were given dominion over. Acting like Gods in our own right.

[Evaah]

Originally Posted by SerpentQueen

Have you considered that the Garden of Eden represents primordial humans? The state for millions of years before "consciousness" (by your definition) arose.

In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were ignorant, innocent and lived in harmony with nature and with God. Everything is going on just swimmingly; it's paradise, no? They have everything they need. They want for nothing. They walk around shamelessly naked. They are.... just like... animals. Pets. God's pets?

Then they are given a choice, to eat from the tree of knowledge, or not. As soon as they decide to eat, they are thrown from paradise.

So let's think this through. I will agree that the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory for an evolutionary leap in human brain development. If you want to call it "consciousness," okay let's run with that. They ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Suddenly, they had Knowledge. What's more, they also had free will -- as they were given a choice to eat or not to eat.

But God threw them out of paradise... so...... If that is the case, would one say consciousness is desirable in the eyes of God? That modern man, with all his consciousness, is superior to primordial man?

You can answer that for yourself.

My answer is that God is more clever than that. God gave Adam and Eve a bigger brain, and powers to be like God himself, with free will and power to create and destroy. That was the whole intention. Then God cast Adam and Eve out of paradise, just like a parent kicking the baby birds out of the nest so they learn to fly.

And ever since, instead of creating a paradise of our own, we've been hell-bent on destroying it completely. Using up every available resource. And yes, leaving behind a historical record of our existence, which, essentially, amounts to ever burgeoning piles of trash and pollution. All the while, many of us sitting around waiting and praying for God to come back and help us clean up our own mess, or disparaging God for not caring. Because that's what immature people do -- they cast around to find blame, or a savior, or an authority figure, and never take responsibility for their own actions. You know what God wants? He wants us to grow the F up already. And proof we are adults is taking care of this planet we were given dominion over. Acting like Gods in our own right.

This.
Very nicely said.

Originally Posted by mickiel

Oh I never said animals cannot communicate, but they cannot communicate as humans do with spoken and written language, because that requires consciousness.

Communication takes some sort of language, whether thats eye contact, words or verbal.

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by SerpentQueen

And you know this... how? Where you there?

I told myself I was going to ignore your posts, but darn it, there I go! Rule #1 on forums: "Do not feed the trolls." You are absolutely a troll. A good one, at that.... yes, i will graciously give you props where props are due.

Have fun trolling.

It is unfortunate that this is how you feel about me. I don't know you, but I regret causing these feelings within you. Let me take this time to offer my sincere regrets.

And I wish you well and Peace on your journey.

[mickiel]

Originally Posted by mickiel

I have seen some of the art, and I don't believe it myself, I think much of it is forgery. Some of it depicts animals that didnot even exist during the supposed time. And I am of the view that drawing does not require consciousness, and really, neither does writing; but thats another issue. Even speaking requires no consciousness at many times. Try speaking with a full consciousness of your articulation as you do it. You will simply stop speaking. Do the same thing in your drawing or writing.

Consciousness functions in the decision as to what to say, or write, or draw; how we are to do it and when; but then the orderly and accomplished succession of phonemes of drawing or writing is somehow done for us. And a blank mind can do all those things.

In my view of consciousness , introspection of a thing is consciousness; understanding the ideas and reasonings of that thing, not simply recording an image of that thing as in art. Conscious retrospection is not a retrieval of images, but the retrieval of what you have been conscious of before, and the reworking of these elements into rational or plausible patterns.

From There is a River by Thomas Sugrue

Souls of their own choice became entangled in matter according to Cayce.

Then a way of escape for the souls was prepared. A form was chosen to be a vehicle for the soul on earth, and the way was made for souls to enter earth and experience it as part of their cycle.

Of the forms already existing on earth one of the anthropoid apes most nearly approached the necessary pattern. Souls descended on these apes--hovering above and about them rather than inhabiting them--and influenced them to move toward a different goal from the simple one they had been pursuing. [...] Swiftly, even as man measures time, they lost their animal look, shed bodily hair, and took on refinements of manner and habit.

All this was done by the souls, working through glands, until the body of the ape was an objectification--in the third dimension of the solar system--of the soul that hovered above it. Then the soul descended into the body and earth had a new inhabitant: man.

He appeared as a consciousness within an animal, a consciousness which was felt on earth in five different places at the same time, as the five races. The white race appeared in the Caucasus, the Carpathians, and Persia. The yellow race appeared in what is now the Gobi Desert. The black race appeared in the Sudan and upper west Africa; the red race appeared in Atlantis; the brown race appeared in the Andes.

Theosophy also has it that man or Adam appeared as five different races.

[mickiel]

That primordal humans had no consciousness, and yet still survived, is no different than unconscious animals surviving throughout the ages. Even modernday humans do most of their complex actions- unconsciously. Playing the Piano is a good example. Here a complex array of various tasks is accomplished all at once with scarcely any consciousness of them whatever: two different lines of near hieroglyphics to be read at once , the right hand guided to one and the left to the other; ten fingers assigned to various tasks, the fingering solving various motor problems without any awareness, and the mind interpreting sharps and flats and naturals into black and white keys, obeying the timing of whole or quarter or sixteenth notes and rests and trills, one hand perhaps in three beats to a measure while the other plays four, while the feet are softening or slurring or holding various other notes;

And all this time the conscious performer is doing most of this unconsciously.

Then why were there instraments almost 70 000 years ago?

IMO, all living things have conscienceness.......