Don't do that

[In Flux]

Thanks Gem and Sky :-)

[sky]

Originally Posted by In Flux

Thanks Gem and Sky :-)

And thank you for the Similes Index It's helpful to have them all in one place for easy access... Without these Translators who freely give years of dedication for the benefit of others Buddhism would be distorted. Some of the Suttas/Sutras are not always easy to read/understand due to cultural differences but Translators most certainly help, the rest is obviously up to each individual to put them into practise to reap the benefits....

[Gem]

The section on the Truth of Suffering is multidimensional and has to be taken all at once. Taking a part, or cherry picking, cannot capture the theory as it pertains to real-meditation practice. Naturally, we can only understand suffering properly by observing it as a phenomena of arising and passing away, so even a holistic comprehension of the philosophy is inadequate, let alone some small part thereof.

The Truth of Suffering

The first paragraph indicated the interaction between the body and mind by first outlaying some common purely physical experiences of suffering before transitioning to the mental component of it.

First the physical:

Birth is suffering, old age is suffering, sickness and death is suffering, pain is suffering.

Then the mental:

Sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and distress are suffering. The association with one does not like is suffering, the disassociation with something one does like is suffering, not to get what one desires is suffering; in short clinging to the five aggregates is suffering (see post #33 on aggregates).

The section goes on the elaborate on each of these types of suffering and defines more clearly what is meant by each:

If there is birth for all kinds of beings in whatever existence, their conception, being born, their becoming, the manifestation of their aggregates (post 33), the acquisition of their senses, is called birth.

The text is repetitive as usual, so I'm summarising.

If there is old age, getting frail and decrepit, breaking teeth, becoming grey and wrinkled, the running down of lifespan and the deterioration of sense - this is old age.

If there is vanishing and passing away for all kinds of beings, their disintegration, dying and death, the completion of their lifespan, the dissolution of aggregates, the discarding of the body and destruction of vitality - this is called death.

Whenever one is affected by loss and misfortune, that are followed by painful states of mind, by mourning, grief and deep inward woe - this is called sorrow.

Whenever such a deeply painful state of mind gives rise to wailing and crying - this is called lamentation.

If there is any kind of bodily pain and bodily unpleasantness or painful or unpleasant sensation due to bodily contact - this is called pain.

If there is any kind of mental pain, mental unpleasantness or any kind of painful, unpleasant sensation due to mental contact - this is called grief.

Whenever affected by loss and misfortune followed by painful states of mind, by tribulation - this is called distress.

Whenever one finds unpleasant, disagreeable or disliked objects of sight, sound and all senses, and wherever one finds wishers of their own misfortune, harm, difficulty and insecurity, if one gets associated with them - this is called being associated with what one does not like

Whenever one finds pleasant, agreeable, liked objects of all the senses, and finds wishers of one's own good fortune, prosperity, comfort and security, like parents, siblings, friends and relatives, if one gets disassociated and does not meet and get in contact with them - That is called being disassociated with what one likes.

That all pretty much goes without saying. It is just a description of various ways in which we suffer both physically and mentally (but is by no means extensive). However, although the above verses are relatable and we can see them as being true for ourselves, it's only a preamble to the following discourse about desire, which is again tediously repetitive, and since this post is already a monster, and the part on desire needs special focus, I'll come back to discuss the part regarding desire later.

[sky]

"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."
The Buddha...

(Dukkhata-suffering in the most general sense)

[sky]

All suffering originates from craving, and our very existence is conditioned by craving, which is threefold: the craving for sense pleasures (kama-tanha), craving for continued and renewed existence (bhava-tanha), and craving for annihilation after death (vibhava-tanha). This is the truth of the origin of suffering.

https://www.vipassana.com/meditation...of%20suffering

[Altair]

Originally Posted by sky

and craving for annihilation after death (vibhava-tanha).

Can you elaborate on that one, Sky?

[sky]

Originally Posted by Altair

Can you elaborate on that one, Sky?

It's a craving to avoid pain and suffering, (physical and emotional) in life and to avoid the reality of rebirth.

In Buddhism craving and desire are different, but that's another teaching for another time mybe

[Gem]

Just wanted to mention, so that we don't become too distracted, that I have a discussion on suffering according to the satipatthana in progress, but it takes a few posts to cover.

The overall discourse on suffering in the sutta goes on for pages, and as you see, my previous monster-post only touches on the most superficial aspects, and really only states the obvious in order to be relatable. That doesn't even include the previous post (#47) on the 4 Noble truths. The full exposition on suffering will take a few posts, each of which builds on that previous.

If we are interrupted internally by leaping to one tangent then another, I fear the orderly process from superficial to sublime will be disrupted and the parts will be scattered to an extent that they won't fit together, and thereby, the issue of suffering will not be comprehended in full context.

If the mind gets scattered at this point it takes us back to an earlier phase covered in post #31 on hinderences, so by all means open up the conversation, but don't lose the mind to the various pitfalls already covered herein.

Just wanted to mention that because it's a hard effort and there's a level of refinement to all this. There's thread running through it that joins all the dots in the right order without getting in a tangle, and we aren't at the end of that string yet.

[Gem]

Desire.

This post follows from the previous. It is not a new section, but the continuation of the same section, The Truth of Suffering.

Just so we can remain in the flow of the narrative, back in post #47 I covered the section on the 4 noble truths (4NT's). This post and the one previous discusses the 1st NT 'there is suffering'. The sutta then go on to discuss the 2nd, 3rd and 4th NT's, but we aren't at those sections yet.

As you can see, the exposition on suffering is quite long, and it can't really be understood in parts. A holistic understanding requires the 'big picture', so the structure of the teaching is, it starts very superficially as per the previous post #73, and proceeds to add more nuance, which starts now with the discourse on desire.

If you lost track of the discursive flow, it's worth recapping post#47, the short commentary in post #49 and my previous post #73.

The fact that all the things mentioned in post#73 are common experiences of human suffering, they are not really suffering in themselves, but become so when co-joined with desire. This will become clearer as we go over the next bit of the sutta.

The Truth of Suffering continued

This part on desire speaks of how desire pertains to the kinds of suffering mentioned in the first part of section (post#73). You will see how in this part of the sutta, 'desire' is used to mean aversion, as it describes the desire to not experience unpleasant things - which is aversion. The desire to experience pleasant things isn't broached until the next section. This also relates to the core principle of meditation: "he dwells with ardent awareness and thorough understanding of impermanence, having removed of craving and aversion toward the world"

Let's go

What is getting what one desires? In beings that are subject to birth the desire arises, "Oh truly that we were not subject to birth. Oh truly may there be no birth for us". This can not be obtained by mere desire; and not getting what one wants is suffering.

The very same is said about old age, sickness, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and distress, before the teaching relates this desire, aka aversion-and-desire, aka craving. The teaching then explains out how this desire pertains to clinging and suffering.

It follows, clinging to the aggregate of matter is suffering, clinging to the aggregate of sensation is suffering, clinging to the aggregate of perception is suffering, clinging to the aggregate of reaction is suffering, clinging to the aggregate of consciousness is suffering.

The section then concludes:

This, in short, is called suffering because of clinging to these 5 aggregates.
This, monks, is the noble truth of suffering

As per the teaching, as you meditate, and in your day to day self-awareness, you can see whatever discomfort and unpleasantry arise, the reaction of aversion/desire toward it, how that elicits clinging, which emerges as trying to avoid it and make it go away, or indeed, as regards pleasure, pursue the thing and try to keep it from passing. The pleasurable side of suffering-via-clinging is introduced in the next section on The Arising of Suffering - which further elaborates on the 2nd Noble Truth, the cause of suffering.

[sky]

If you go back to the first Sermon The Buddha gave ( The Four Noble Truths ) you can see that it is 'Craving' not Desire that is the truth of suffering.

"Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination.

“Now this, bhikkhus (Monks) is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it".
Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta - Setting the wheel in motion Sutta....

In Buddhism Cravings are misplaced Desires. In various other Suttas/Sutras He teaches the benefits of having and pursuing healthy/wholesome Desires and he encouraged his followers to arouse ardent Desire for liberation.