How devoted are you to your beliefs?

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

If you aren't devoted to your beliefs, what can you do or accomplish? Life would become an indeterminant wafting of incessant doubt, uncertainty, denial, confusion, and frustration. Oops - - just described the common mental affliction: "I don't have any beliefs"...a belief in itself (unexamined) and also significantly therefore, a conceit of unconscious self-deception.

Fear of 'failure' (therefore non-commitment) and Greed for 'success' (and therefore total/absolute commitment) are two sides of the SAME selfish 'coin'.

Originally Posted by Jyotir

This is why so many are stuck in a vicious circle: fear of devotion and consecration - the inverse of your OP quandary. They travel around the circumference looking into the centre but don't jump in. They think if they commit, its going to be a static one-dimensional prison; an imagined prejudicial presumption which supervenes more productive and progressive experience. That's also a belief of the mind and a false one.

OK, Jyotir. As long as one also continues to recognize the fact that 'absolute-faith' based commitment similarly (often quite insiduously!) results in people perseveratively 'going around in circles', repeatedly 'end up falling off of cliffs', self-and other immolatively 'banging their [heads against walls', 'remaining stuck' instead of 'moving further along', all spiritually speaking, of course.

Requoting stuff from chapter two of my treatise:

... simply ‘thinking the thought’ and ‘talking the talk’, i.e. just believing and socially affiliating with others who ‘confess’ and ‘proclaim’ their belief that what Jesus and others (in different ways) have stated in similar regards is absolutely true, won’t result in a soul’s psychospiritually realizing the ‘eternally’ ongoing Life he referenced. One has to actually ‘walk the walk’ of self-transcendence by really considering and intelligently (one might say, Solomonically☺) evaluating what most likely will and what most likely won’t serve to maximize the experience and expression of Love and Joy in The Flow of Life and then really (i.e.conscientiously!) choosing to do what(ever!) one consequently thinks and feels has the best chance of so serving – in other words, not just for one’s own self’s or any other particular self’s or set of selves’ Love and Joy ‘sakes’ – as one goes along, for the kind of Life Jesus spoke of to be ‘entered into’ and soulfully ‘lived’ thereafter.

This of course (as previously cautioned) requires that one not become smugly self-assured, by way of thinking and feeling that what(ever) one presently believes encapsulates the totality of the truth in said (or, for that matter, any other) regard, but rather that one tolerate and embrace the kind of uncertainty that accompanies awareness of the fact that there may well be more for one to learn and know and consequently do (or know and do ‘better’!), and hence that one always continue to open‑mind-n-heart-edly consider, evaluate and garner wisdom from what may – based on my own experience, I say will! – in retrospect be seen as having been ‘errors’ of omission and/or commission stemming from one’s not having been completely aware of the relevance of dynamically operational situational factors, which process of learning and development of greater awareness and adeptitude will only continue (over the course of one’s incarnational involvement) if one doesn’t sabotage its potential ever-ongoingness by presumptuously concluding that there is nothing ‘more’ for one to know or that there is no ‘better’ way for one to proceed in order to fully become and completely be self-transcendentally, i.e. holistically, Cosmic‑Spirit aligned. It is only by virtue of proceeding humbly in said regard that further experience of incarnational embodiment (wherein the exigencies of personal limitation and corollary experiences of frustration, pain, loss, etc. associated with selfhood serve as ‘task-masters’ and so, in effect, as ‘teachers’ of self‑transcendence) are eventually rendered passé.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by ketzer

... I tend to see faith as a necessary ingredient to life. Yet, faith does often drive belief as we may need to justify our faith to ourselves or risk losing it, and we often need to justify those beliefs by citing facts. And so often, faith drives belief which drives fact selection, rather than facts driving beliefs. Sometimes, the consequences of following those beliefs are catastrophic, yet you are correct, experience is often the best teacher.

It is interesting that many will want to know what the holocaust survivor learned from that experience, what wisdom they may have to offer. Yet seldom is it ever asked what wisdom the once devoted and dedicated Nazi may have taken from their experience. Yet when it comes to avoiding repeating such history, I think perhaps the Nazi could have as much or more wisdom to offer. If I incarnate to seek the knowledge of good and evil, must I become both to thoroughly gain this knowledge? Perhaps, but I don't believe anybody can intentionally seek to be evil, they may be seeking justice, or even be dedicated to the belief that they are seeking to do good, yet evil is often the result nonetheless. Perhaps, this is just how the school of life works??

Great observations (of fact ) and ruminations based thereon.

High-Five, Ketz!

Originally Posted by davidsun

Great observations (of fact ) and ruminations based thereon.

High-Five, Ketz!

Thx David

It is a bit of a balancing act I suppose (like balancing spinning dishes on poles at the end of one's nose). One does not want to be so devoted to their beliefs that they become blind to anything that opposes them. Yet experience can teach in ways that nothing else can, and the more deeply we believe in something, the more deeply we experience it. We are pulled in opposite directions. The cynic finds it hard to muster up passion and determination, yet too much passion clouds the mind and if focused on the wrong thing can burn down the house and everyone in it. Oh well, I suppose nobody ever promised this rollercoaster ride of good and evil we call life was going simple and tame.

[Jyotir]

Hi ketzer,

Originally Posted by ketzer

There is a lot to think about in all of that. I tend to see faith as a necessary ingredient to life. Yet, faith does often drive belief as we may need to justify our faith to ourselves or risk losing it, and we often need to justify those beliefs by citing facts. And so often, faith drives belief which drives fact selection, rather than facts driving beliefs. Sometimes, the consequences of following those beliefs are catastrophic, yet you are correct, experience is often the best teacher.

Experience is necessarily the teacher par excellence in the physical for us to evolve into the consciousness of which the emerging faith is the precursor, anchor, and beacon…that we eventually will realize fully.

Action yields consequences.
Ignorant action perpetuates ignorance, while illumined action yields progressive consequences… evolution.

That’s why, “experience, realize, examine, re-orient, and move on is "the way"...

…including the element of failure which is also a good teacher, but obviously works better and is more progressive when the orienting intention is based on faith. This is something all the great human teachers have explicated and demonstrated.

If the original intention is aligned with the Will of Spirit (faith), due to the nature of faith which is the glimmer of truth and light within us, any self-examination in failure will necessarily and inevitably re-orient and re-align closer to Spirit in, by, and through that self-same light of truth which Spirit IS.

Faith in Spirit is a self-conscious awareness of Spirit - even if substantially veiled by ignorance, it is still present and will precipitate as belief/concept/construct on the mental plane. But if experience demonstrates otherwise, yet faith persists in the devotion to God, Will of God, and so beliefs can, may, and hopefully will change accordingly on the persistence of faith, subsidiary to the central orientation of the faith.

That means even in failure of belief or belief’s faulty, partial, or mis-applied manifestations, etc., the fundamental faith remains the dominant central focus and orientation which will not fail because its very nature is truth, the emergence of which is the very purpose of the divine Will in the physical. Spirit cannot and will not fail. But that's also why it is patient and forgiving!

If it is not truth, it is not faith. Simple. And the proof is in the progressive pudding. Those who cite failure in whatever form as the sole determinant for the professed theoretically inherent lack of viability of faith, have unconsciously accepted and/or rationalized their prevalent doubt, suspicion, cynicism, insincerity, etc. as the central principle of spiritual progression and/or have equivocated a familiar rational intellectual process with an intuitive faith (which has to be irrational by nature) - which is as incorrect as it is inappropriate, a failure in and of itself. Hopefully this becomes temporary if and when they supersede the limited cognition of mind with something intrinsically more reliable and durable = faith.

Originally Posted by ketzer

It is interesting that many will want to know what the holocaust survivor learned from that experience, what wisdom they may have to offer. Yet seldom is it ever asked what wisdom the once devoted and dedicated Nazi may have taken from their experience. Yet when it comes to avoiding repeating such history, I think perhaps the Nazi could have as much or more wisdom to offer. If I incarnate to seek the knowledge of good and evil, must I become both to thoroughly gain this knowledge? Perhaps, but I don't believe anybody can intentionally seek to be evil, they may be seeking justice, or even be dedicated to the belief that they are seeking to do good, yet evil is often the result nonetheless. Perhaps, this is just how the school of life works??

Right, not just camp survivors; I invite you to seek out and look at all types of “survivors”:
People who saw the signs in pre-war Germany and emigrated.
Germans who after the war were horrified and haunted by their participation; even hard-core Nazis who repented and changed. etc.

Life may begin in ignorance but evil is the conscious deliberate perpetuation of it.

Wisdom is the acquired capacity of acting in the physical based in truth; becoming an instrument of the divine Will or dynamic truth-consciousness.

This is going to be a key discovery of the current century:

One does not have to become or experience evil in order to progress spiritually since evil has no original inherence in reality. Rather, evil is a possible and unfortunate by-product of the self-consciousness separative cognition of ego-mind.

The only reason history repeats itself is due to the persistence of ignorance and the circular limited and limiting nature of ego-mind that cannot by nature supersede itself - but which faith by nature can and does supersede.

However, faith may be confused with belief. They are not the same, and faith is infinitely superior even if belief may derive from faith as a mental formation or construct of the deeper principle.

That same ignorance conditionally veils an infinite spiritual aspiration that is really the same as faith and is the legitimate means of transcending the Ignorance we find ourselves in. Spiritual evolution has the potential to progress from more and increasing light and truth, to infinite light. Not only is it our essential nature, but it is also the real basis of faith.

~ J

[davidsun]

I am in aligment with you say above, J, though I think it would be better if you qualified your comments referencing 'faith' by saying of 'faith' in what.

That being said, in completely affirmative response to this 'snippet':

Originally Posted by Jyotir

[color="Navy"]That’s why, “experience, realize, examine, re-orient, and move on is "the way"...[color]

in my much referenced chapter I say:

To progress in the ‘direction’ of soul growth, development and maturation, or ‘ascension’ as some think of it ... one must discern and discriminatingly only continue to embrace and act on the basis of those thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc. which, after critical examination and open-minded review of the results of having done so, one [added here: intelligently!] concludes or at least has reason to believe have really led to one’s more deeply immersing oneself in The Flow of Life and (corollarily) more Love and Joy fully co‑relating with and to others therein. This, of course, also entails choosing, at least provisionally till one collects and collates enough data to warrant making a firm decision in said regard, to ‘let go’ of whatever thoughts, feelings, beliefs, expectations, etc. one concludes or has reason to suspect do not yield such result, especially any that strike one as being counterproductive in said (Flow of Love and Joy in relationship to and with others as well as Life Itself) regard. Repeating and refining such critical examination and selective choice operation on the basis of what one ‘sees’ and/or ‘senses’ at any given awareness-point in the course of one’s psychospiritual journey is essential for one’s ‘evolutionary’ process to move ‘forward’. (Using the analogy of gemstone cutting, some speak of this as getting ‘rid’ of one’s ‘rough’ edges or as ‘perfecting’ one’s Love and Joy constellation. Such model isn’t fluid enough to completely suit my sensibilities, but I do find it positively evocative and (so) sometimes use it to advocate what I regard to be supremely desirable, as here.)

And, in relation to this snippet:

Originally Posted by Jyotir

…including the element of failure which is also a good teacher, ...

in said chapter I say:

The alternative [to 'success'] in relation to any particular challenge and/or opportunity, of course, being to ‘fail’ to do so, though, as you probably know if you are experienced enough, such ‘failure’ does not in and of itself preclude anyone from progressing in the above regard because one may often learn even more by reviewing and learning ‘lessons’ from one’s ‘failures’ than one’s ‘successes’. Indeed, the possibility of ‘failure’, and so ‘failures’ themselves, are crucial components of a soul’s developmental process. A string of ‘successes’ alone will not result in one’s developing the degree of mental acuity and emotional resilience required to recognize, wisely navigate, and functionally emancipate oneself from being subject to the pulls and pushes of immediate selfish-gratification affording ‘temptations’ which, besides often leading one in a ‘wrong’ (short-term-gain-long-term-cost) direction, divert precious attention and energy away from the goal of maximally actualizing one’s Love and Joy potential in relation to and with other aspects of Life’s Presence and Flow Process. As in the case of a child’s learning to stand up, walk, run, etc., experiences of ‘failure’ resulting from one’s being short-sighted, careless, uncoordinated, etc. and (so) losing one’s balance, tripping and falling, bumping into walls, etc. in relation to others actually pave the way for ‘success’ in this regard.

and

Though self-gratifying physiological and social support systems as well as imaginative projections which lead people to hope and emotionally anticipate that they will, even if not right away, at least experience relief, ease, fulfillment, happiness, etc. in the future may indeed be Love and Joy sustaining up to a point, the fact remains that soulfully encountering and experiencing the kinds of ‘troubles’ that are, in the final analysis, inescapable aspects of being ensconced ‘in’ a physically limited, temporally transient personal body that is subject to frustration, pain, loss, ego‑defeat, death, etc. is necessary for the kind of self‑transcendental ‘i’dentity expansion and psychospiritual growth spoken of in this chapter to be situationally ‘called’ for and stimulated to ‘come’ forth. A soul’s capacity for psychospiritual fortitude and interpersonal empathy (stemming from cognition and appreciation of the ubiquitousness and transcendency of the Presence and Power of Life Itself), for instance, would never develop otherwise; albeit these are just a couple of a whole host of psychospiritual awareness and adeptitude based capabilities which must be conscientiously directed and devotionally deployed in service of Life Itself for a nodal soul to transcendentally e‧merge from the ‘womb’ of its embryonic other-dependency and infantile selfishness (note: I use the word 'must' here only to state what is functionally necessary for such outcome, not to assert any kind of moralistic ‘should’ in this completely free-choice regard.)

Salut, Bro!

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Spiritual evolution has the potential to progress from more and increasing light and truth, to infinite light. Not only is it our essential nature, but it is also the real basis of faith.

~ J [/color][/indent]

Infinite Light. Bam hits me every time. I Love it.
same with infinite Love. Just sends me a soaring with the Eagle.

A Ho Mitákuye Oyás'iŋ (All Are Related or All is connected)

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Infinite Light. Bam hits me every time. I Love it.
same with infinite Love. Just sends me a soaring with the Eagle.

A Ho Mitákuye Oyás'iŋ (All Are Related or All is connected)

Thanks for reposting what J said about the 'basis' of 'faith' (which I asked about), ITI.

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi ketzer,



Experience is necessarily the teacher par excellence in the physical for us to evolve into the consciousness of which the emerging faith is the precursor, anchor, and beacon…that we eventually will realize fully.

Action yields consequences.
Ignorant action perpetuates ignorance, while illumined action yields progressive consequences… evolution.

That’s why, “experience, realize, examine, re-orient, and move on is "the way"...

…including the element of failure which is also a good teacher, but obviously works better and is more progressive when the orienting intention is based on faith. This is something all the great human teachers have explicated and demonstrated.

If the original intention is aligned with the Will of Spirit (faith), due to the nature of faith which is the glimmer of truth and light within us, any self-examination in failure will necessarily and inevitably re-orient and re-align closer to Spirit in, by, and through that self-same light of truth which Spirit IS.

Faith in Spirit is a self-conscious awareness of Spirit - even if substantially veiled by ignorance, it is still present and will precipitate as belief/concept/construct on the mental plane. But if experience demonstrates otherwise, yet faith persists in the devotion to God, Will of God, and so beliefs can, may, and hopefully will change accordingly on the persistence of faith, subsidiary to the central orientation of the faith.

That means even in failure of belief or belief’s faulty, partial, or mis-applied manifestations, etc., the fundamental faith remains the dominant central focus and orientation which will not fail because its very nature is truth, the emergence of which is the very purpose of the divine Will in the physical. Spirit cannot and will not fail. But that's also why it is patient and forgiving!

If it is not truth, it is not faith. Simple. And the proof is in the progressive pudding. Those who cite failure in whatever form as the sole determinant for the professed theoretically inherent lack of viability of faith, have unconsciously accepted and/or rationalized their prevalent doubt, suspicion, cynicism, insincerity, etc. as the central principle of spiritual progression and/or have equivocated a familiar rational intellectual process with an intuitive faith (which has to be irrational by nature) - which is as incorrect as it is inappropriate, a failure in and of itself. Hopefully this becomes temporary if and when they supersede the limited cognition of mind with something intrinsically more reliable and durable = faith.




Right, not just camp survivors; I invite you to seek out and look at all types of “survivors”:
People who saw the signs in pre-war Germany and emigrated.
Germans who after the war were horrified and haunted by their participation; even hard-core Nazis who repented and changed. etc.

Life may begin in ignorance but evil is the conscious deliberate perpetuation of it.

Wisdom is the acquired capacity of acting in the physical based in truth; becoming an instrument of the divine Will or dynamic truth-consciousness.

This is going to be a key discovery of the current century:

One does not have to become or experience evil in order to progress spiritually since evil has no original inherence in reality. Rather, evil is a possible and unfortunate by-product of the self-consciousness separative cognition of ego-mind.

The only reason history repeats itself is due to the persistence of ignorance and the circular limited and limiting nature of ego-mind that cannot by nature supersede itself - but which faith by nature can and does supersede.

However, faith may be confused with belief. They are not the same, and faith is infinitely superior even if belief may derive from faith as a mental formation or construct of the deeper principle.

That same ignorance conditionally veils an infinite spiritual aspiration that is really the same as faith and is the legitimate means of transcending the Ignorance we find ourselves in. Spiritual evolution has the potential to progress from more and increasing light and truth, to infinite light. Not only is it our essential nature, but it is also the real basis of faith.

~ J

Interesting take on it. I think I agree with most if not all of that, but I am wondering how you conceptualize the meaning of "faith". Perhaps you could go more into depth?

Originally Posted by davidsun

"I am in aligment with you say above, J, though I think it would be better if you qualified your comments referencing 'faith' by saying of 'faith' in what."

Yes, that is my first instinct as well, but on reflection, I am not sure J is not getting at something else. Faith precedes belief (for me), it keeps me moving forward (as best I can discern direction) even when I can't see anything up ahead. I have faith that there is something to get to. Any "whats" I place there are not really what my faith is in, just temporary manifestations or concepts representing something more nebulous. But if faith can be present without beliefs, preceding and leading to the generation of beliefs, then where does faith arise from.... perhaps it is a finger pointing to a moon, an indication that there is something within that knows a truth, and generates that faith. It is hard to put this into words which is probably why J's post is hard to follow.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Yes, that is my first instinct as well, but on reflection, I am not sure J is not getting at something else. Faith precedes belief (for me), it keeps me moving forward (as best I can discern direction) even when I can't see anything up ahead. I have faith that there is something to get to. Any "whats" I place there are not really what my faith is in, just temporary manifestations or concepts representing something more nebulous. But if faith can be present without beliefs, preceding and leading to the generation of beliefs, then where does faith arise from.... perhaps it is a finger pointing to a moon, an indication that there is something within that knows a truth, and generates that faith. It is hard to put this into words which is probably why J's post is hard to follow.

I share your sensibility on the above regard, Ketz. Ultimately, it may just be 'faith' that Life is essence-ially 'good' and/or that it will 'evolve' to get 'better' - a kind of 'built in' 'positive' leaning, without which peeps may be inclined 'go' insane - Life's 'vagaries' are 'scary' otherwise (i.e. if one doesn't have such 'faith')!