The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I am saying teachings and masters do not and should not be expected to provide the wisdom in all areas. We are all human. But rather in certain areas where they excelled. They are not perfected, even if advanced in some areas far beyond others. We are not perfected either. Nor are the teachings perfected. None of it. And there are areas of particular oversight which exist and which fall to us today to address on our journey of growth and expansion.

My dear 7L



You speak of perfection so you must have a scale and ruler and idea

In my opinion, we are not looking here for "perfect" beings whatever that means - and perhaps to you that is God who is supposed to cure all evils, all inequality, be a man woman champion, break down environmental ignorance, whilst penetrating to the core of Silence and Infinity and embodying the Divine within human form, etc.

I have no such view. My opinion is simply these "Masters" - or let's call them simply "Servants of God and Love and Truth and Divinity" - have mastery in matters of Love and God and Ultimate Truth and Divinity. That is All. And that is where things are sought if that is one's interest and preference - let's call it heart call.

I am saying teachings and masters do not and should not be expected to provide the wisdom in all areas.

Exactly.

i.e. That is their expertise and that is what their Gnosis reveals to them. What you speak of is social activisim and certainly some can work in that field, but in my opinion, I have no expectations of perfection (whatever that means ) or knowledge of all areas including plumbing, social activism, gender equality, economic repression etc. For example, these are the works of ego, and until ego is cured these problems will always exist. Hence you have revolutions - good or bad, and the cycle will always repeat itself. That is the world of human beings and this precludes the part about spiritual Masters being privy to much more than the world of form/consciousness and Earth, in my opinion. i.e. their perspective is significantly wider in my view. This is not to say that we shouldn't work to the benefit of things e.g. the environment, gender equality and the like - of course these are important and if your heart is drawn to them, all the more better and admirable. I certainly respect all people in service to others and our enlightened values and ideals, which I am certainly grateful for.

Nor are the teachings perfected. None of it.


lol That is a pretty deep statement for someone who is not in service to them. I would (personally) contend that in God realization, there is perfection. Although that is at the Ultimate level, it doesn't preclude the truth of perfection.

I have further thoughts on this but find no value in expressing them as I think we are ultimately using a different lens and context here. I also do not want to keep conflating spiritual mastery with mastery of social activism, feminism, gender equality, vegetarianism, environmentalism, economic justice, social justice, legal justice and the like - not saying it's not important, just that I think we are speaking at slight cross purposes and that ultimately benefits no-one

By the way if you are talking about continual learning, evolution etc. then I believe that all beings learn and continue to learn - and what they choose to apply themselves to in this area is a matter of personal will and choice.

Much love, 7L.

Take good care, friend.

BT

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

No I don't think they did..
I was merely stating the obvious. That said it seems that the masters behavior comes under a looking glass when they are set against the values we wish to see in them.

From 7 lights post I got the impression a master should conform to what she beliefs are the traits a master would embody and act upon.

I don't necessarily share that view.

With Love
Eelco

Noted. And a very good point as always. Maybe from now on I can just refer to your posts rather than my own

Best wishes,

BT

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Cat, hello there. No, that's not what I intended to convey, but to have a conversation is to encounter just these difficulties in conveyance of meaning

I was saying only that we are not perfected. The masters are not perfected. The teachings are not perfected. Perhaps the masters are farther along in some ways. Yet not in others and there is no uniformity, of course. We are all individuals.

The masters of yesteryear may still have much to teach many of us, perhaps most of us. But not all masters of yesteryear will be as advanced in many areas that we consider and know to be intrinsic to our humanity as some of the masters we have now -- even of many enlightened lay persons such as a Dorothy Day or similar. Pele was great in his day but he would be a middling international player today, acc'd to those who know the sport. And this potentially applies to all things...i.e., that growth and expansion may occur.

It is not to disparage what we have received from the masters who came before. But neither is it to enshrine and fail to challenge ourselves to go further. We need to be the masters we seek, and IMO that should be our goal. Then we can address the gaps that remain and address our individual and collective work as needed, which went unaddressed in times past when humanity was not yet ready to see it.

I hope that this explains better and if not, apologies and no disrespect intended.

Peace & blessings
7L

You are speaking here of knowledge here 7L. God Truths are eternal and not borne of common knowledge (intellect, thought, belief, science) - hence their commonality across all major traditions and the unbroken truth from all genuinely realized spiritual masters.



The rest is yours.

BT

Be Lost in the Call

Lord, said David, since you do not need us,
why did you create these two worlds?

Reality replied: O prisoner of time,
I was a secret treasure of kindness and generosity,
and I wished this treasure to be known,
so I created a mirror: its shining face, the heart;
its darkened back, the world;
The back would please you if you've never seen the face.

Has anyone ever produced a mirror out of mud and straw?
Yet clean away the mud and straw,
and a mirror might be revealed.

Until the juice ferments a while in the cask,
it isn't wine. If you wish your heart to be bright,
you must do a little work.

My King addressed the soul of my flesh:
You return just as you left.
Where are the traces of my gifts?

We know that alchemy transforms copper into gold.
This Sun doesn't want a crown or robe from God's grace.
He is a hat to a hundred bald men,
a covering for ten who were naked.

Jesus sat humbly on the back of an ***, my child!
How could a zephyr ride an ***?
Spirit, find your way, in seeking lowness like a stream.
Reason, tread the path of selflessness into eternity.

Remember God so much that you are forgotten.
Let the caller and the called disappear;
be lost in the Call.

-
"Love is a Stranger", Kabir Helminski
Threshold Books, 1993

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by hallow

i understand everyone learns differently, but reading about "masters" and "gurus"
Confused me. If i labeled myself one of those would people listen to what i say more? Yes experience is very important but its your own path shouldn't you make it your own? Most teachers only teach what they consider important. I can understand going to someone more experienced for some guidance "that's why i am here". I don't know, just an idea.

Hello there dear hallow --

Of course, what wise words.

"Yes experience is very important but its your own path shouldn't you make it your own?"

The spiritual journey is always your own, yes.

When I speak of experience, I only speak of someone having walked that path before you and reached their destination.

For example, if you wanted to travel to a certain Kingdom which no-one else around you had been to, and you were intent on this, sincere in your intention. You first pick up some books from some faraway wayfarers, the first explorer so to speak. You read up on the map, the guide, the landscape, you look for hints and tricks, you find out what you need to get there (the toolbox, the backpack, food, training for your body and mind). And after a long time, one day you decide you want to go. So you pick it all up, put down the books, and what do you do? I imagine - one step at a time, you move forward, feeling your way, putting what you learnt into practice. It feels weird, but before you know it, you are another wayfarer on their way to the destination.

So yes - this is your path and no-one else's. The value of a guide/teacher is that they have done that too and can give you hints, encouragement, help you when you have gone off on a side track and even - which I think is not so well known - help you in ways that you cannot imagine.

Remember, in the field of spiritual truths, it's not just common borne knowledge we are speaking of, but nor does it need to be so esoteric and far off that is beyond the every day man and woman. In fact, it's open to all. Be wary of someone who makes it too far fetched or too unique only to themselves. A good teacher will typically meet you where you are and not give off an air of specialness about themself.

Regardless of discussions on this, the boon is in encountering good genuine friends/guides along the way, if it is of interest. If it is not, that is perfectly OK as well, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by hallow

If i labeled myself one of those would people listen to what i say more?

It depends. I think that genuine teachers teach more of service than anything, and in their heart mind they serve. Having said that, I suspect/speculate/imagine that if Jesus or Gautama lived today, they would probably be shunned to a degree and of course the internet would have no shortage of skeptics. That said, there are always those amenable to Truth, so I guess all things are in the necessary balance at the end of the day.

Please note that not all people with titles of Guru or Master are genuine spiritual teachers, but it's not always easy to tell whom from what, especially if one is not versed in the inner arts of the practice. That is why depending on what you are interested in, it may be a better course to stay within well known, reputable lineages/traditions.

Originally Posted by hallow

I don't know, just an idea.

That's what forums are about! Thanks for your ideas, I appreciate them, hallow

BT

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Masters are people too. All they have is some experience or insight that might help the rest of us live more at peace with ourselves.

Why do we go to any teacher? Because they know something we wish to learn. This applies to the spiritual and the mundane.

Spiritually, there are many categories of masters/teachers/gurus.

1. Some simply teach what they have been taught, and perhaps they have never experienced the reality behind what is taught. There are many such teachers around.
   
2. Some may have experiences and insights which may help others, but they lack the ability to transmit this experience to others. For example, Rajneesh (Osho) or J. Krishnamurti. They can only speak of what they know; those who listen may be inspired but may never experience it for themselves.
   
3. Some have realisations and abilities attained through particular practices. They can teach these practices to others, who then have to apply the practices to attain the same realisations and abilities.
   
4. Some may be able to transmit experiences through shaktipat, whether by touch or look or simply being present. One of the meanings of the word "guru" is "revealer of light".
   
5. And I am sure that there are Masters who are completely unknown to the outside world, working behind the scenes through particular disciples, and such Masters have long transcended ordinary human limitations.

So making generalisations about masters and what they may or may not be is not always useful or meaningful.

Regarding the issue of gender and female spiritual teachers, as has been mentioned there are many such female teachers in most traditions, eg Christian, Sufi, Buddhist, and particularly in India. However, they do seem to be a minority.

What has not been mentioned is that if an evolved individual incarnates for the purpose of becoming a spiritual teacher to guide others, then they also choose whether to incarnate in a male or female body. Perhaps given the nature of society the majority choose a male body because that will suit their purpose better, but there are still many advanced souls who choose to incarnate in female form. As society evolves so perhaps the numbers of male and female masters will even out.

But in the end the male or female body is just a form for the expression of the Divine, and spiritual consciousness is nothing to do with the gender of the physical form.

Peace.

[7luminaries]

BT - hello and thanks for your thoughts. I think we will have to agree to disagree and that's fine. But I do want to say that you appear to have misunderstood and thus misrepresented much of what I said, and as I said to Cat, this is par for the course in communication.

I have always said my thoughts are my own and I am speaking for no one else. I have followed several major traditions for several years and do appreciate their profound contributions. And I do believe that all here on earth, just as everywhere in the cosmos and beyond, is in a state of becoming and hence is not "done" or "perfected". This is what I intend by being perfected, i.e., the state of becoming more truly what we are. Now just because we are becoming who we are, that does not mean I think we should be or expect to be "perfect" or "perfection" right now. I frankly found that extremely puzzling, that you or anyone would assume that of me (or of anyone). That is a leap or a misunderstanding I saw several times in your response.

In saying that all is in a state of becoming perfected, nothing and no one is yet perfected and IMO that is an eternal state, as there is always more IMO. That is not to say I have an "idea and rule and scale" of what perfection is. I did not lay out such a thing because it is exactly what I don't believe in -- limitations or static ideals or enshrinement of a given thought, person, or moment in time. What I don't believe in is "perfect" or "perfection" or that we should be that right now. What I do believe in is the ongoing perfection, or the becoming. I hope now that I have better conveyed my meaning and if not, apologies in advance.

What you speak of is social activisim and certainly some can work in that field, but in my opinion, I have no expectations of perfection (whatever that means ) or knowledge of all areas including plumbing, social activism, gender equality, economic repression etc.

Again, I never used the word perfection but rather that all is in a state of becoming, which implies an ultimate state of perfection -- rather than a state of perfection having arrived already. Your repeated use of it in this context is unexpected and of course is not what I intended.

I would hope you don't assume that I am facile in my integration of the inner work and the outer manifestation, whether or not you aspire to that for yourself or not. However, if you reject or do not agree with the deeper gnosis of my path and continue to make (what I have stated are for me) artificial distinctions which are meaningless and obstructive to me on my path, then I leave you to it, respectfully

I have further thoughts on this but find no value in expressing them as I think we are ultimately using a different lens and context here. I also do not want to keep conflating spiritual mastery with mastery of social activism, feminism, gender equality, vegetarianism, environmentalism, economic justice, social justice, legal justice and the like - not saying it's not important, just that I think we are speaking at slight cross purposes and that ultimately benefits no-one

I disagree completely, when speaking for myself. IMO there is no conflation but a natural interbeing and permeation, and ultimately, a fuller integration of the way of conscious humanity. I will of course agree that people may prefer to do things differently (or, that at different places on the path different things will suit) and that all ways are to be respected. I think that last is a particularly important takeaway.

I listed three main areas of general oversight which IMO the greatest masters did directly touch on...but which many if not most traditions, masters, and teachings have not addressed or included. Some have ignored and/or directly underwritten the excesses.

class based oppression (includes all affiliated subgroups of oppression)
gender based oppression
environmental trauma (Gaian based oppression)

I think the distinctions between internal work and external manifestation are artificial, particularly at a certain point on our path.

I believe that manifesting lovingkindness and equanimity in today's time and place will tend to naturally occur in these three core areas, as a consciously directed overflow of the fruits of the spirit. And I believe that it is right and good to integrate ever more fully as we walk our paths.

Thank you so much for interesting discussion and for sharing your thoughts.

Peace & blessings
7L

[naturesflow]

But you know what the parallel is? Superman, who was just an ordinary dude where he was from and was only above par when he was taken here. If we wonder where is the source of Jesus's humillity (or Cal-El's), it's because they knew this, in the very core of their being. Their different reality gifted them with a higher starting point...like being spiritually wealthy...and provided their own gifts a place of free flourishing. Their elevation was real, but it also points directly at our own human potential

.

The difference is higher consciousness with a deeper centre in lovingkindness and equanimity, IS possible for us. It's not like flying or bending steel...requiring great gifts that routinely defy laws of physics in our material realm etc. Ultimately, higher consciousness simply requires a great desire and a great perseverance for the work at hand, along with both teachers (lower case "t") and fellow travellers.

Hi 7L as I was reading through this, it took me to my friend in USA who I met a number of years ago. What struck me about her was her ability to remember so deeply her early memories of her life. She had vivid memories (her self awareness was extraordinary by all accounts with what she shares with me) of her carers and other beings around her as a loving presence as well as a deep sense of what was not loving. She had a real sense of what love was as a small infant. She became gifted in this awareness, with an ability to form a very early understanding of the differences in herself(her most important and earliest foundation) her own gifts (vivid baby memories) and her abilities as a small child. (she taught herself to read at age two, was moving objects with her mind in her cradle (so this showed her the power of the mind early on). So when we talk of human potential, it often runs through all these things mentioned in her story that serves the child to know itself that deep and not lose that connection.

My friend retained a deep sense of her true essence in the way she was able to reflect and come to know herself as a baby. Her self awareness early on supported her to know "herself deeper", to know the truth in a more balanced state of awareness of her lived experience. She understand herself and other human potential as a very small infant in her cradle. So for someone like my friend, she has the capacity, from this early point of awareness, to create what she remembers as her true self, a natural life creation supporting this. She never lost sight of who she was deeper in herself. Even as the world and experiences laid over her essence, she still had the capacity to know herself beyond this.

Many people caught up in that loss of self deeper (true self) without full realization of themselves at that depth, can often lose the "awareness" and perception of itself beyond conditioning. I have learned to reach mine through conscious work on self. I was the complete opposite to my friend. Fear over ran my awareness of loving presence. Going as deep as I could to find myself beyond conditioning, to open the awareness of what "feels" now more true to me, which naturally lead me back to her and her earliest understandings and awareness.


As I see this through myself and my friend as the example, you have two streams of the one meeting point of "sameness" and "understanding". Just two different ways of coming together to that point. It is easy for her and I to relate more so, because we both have reached the point of awareness within ourselves that "knows" what is true to our true nature. We both opened this differently of course, in different ways and different experiences, but we both found that meeting point, because we are both "aware" now of our core true essence.

When you find these kind of people together, you know they have nothing to prove, take away, force, challenge or expose of you. There is the awareness deeper of knowing yourself, so you move more open and connected together. The surface nature of exploration and discovery, is not about self preservation and need to fear, but the deeper awareness of self, open and aware of itself complete.

When you feel complete at the core of self, being open and connected has nothing to prove really. It just loves to share and understands itself and other life where it is aware.

So for Jesus, I suspect that he was much like my friend. He had that early point of loving awareness so strong perhaps, that reflected back to him to identify himself as that. That loving awareness would have allowed him to open his gifts (human potential) in ways that most others had most likely suffered and lost touch with.

I have a question for you.
DO you get a sense of others who are more consciously aware of their true self in conversations you have with them? Can you sense the differences in this way? My friend and I often discuss these things, in how when you become more clear in this way of sensing, the presence of others is often felt clear or not clear to the core in themselves. I would say this is because of the clarity of your own awareness in feeling and seeing of yourself of course. There is no other way to be understand this reflection than to know yourself aware in this way. Of course intellectually one can have the deeper understanding we are all have the potential to know ourselves to the true essence of love and joy, but the real sense of another in this way becomes a much more heightened connection of awareness. The more clear you are in knowing yourself, through all streams of self open and clear, the more clear this sense of others becomes as I perceive it now.

I am not asking this to create segregation, but more for the purpose of self reflection and discovery of how you might have perceived your life early on and in others from that view right now?

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Why do we go to any teacher? Because they know something we wish to learn. This applies to the spiritual and the mundane.

Spiritually, there are many categories of masters/teachers/gurus.

1. Some simply teach what they have been taught, and perhaps they have never experienced the reality behind what is taught. There are many such teachers around.
   
2. Some may have experiences and insights which may help others, but they lack the ability to transmit this experience to others. For example, Rajneesh (Osho) or J. Krishnamurti. They can only speak of what they know; those who listen may be inspired but may never experience it for themselves.
   
3. Some have realisations and abilities attained through particular practices. They can teach these practices to others, who then have to apply the practices to attain the same realisations and abilities.
   
4. Some may be able to transmit experiences through shaktipat, whether by touch or look or simply being present. One of the meanings of the word "guru" is "revealer of light".
   
5. And I am sure that there are Masters who are completely unknown to the outside world, working behind the scenes through particular disciples, and such Masters have long transcended ordinary human limitations.

So making generalisations about masters and what they may or may not be is not always useful or meaningful.

Regarding the issue of gender and female spiritual teachers, as has been mentioned there are many such female teachers in most traditions, eg Christian, Sufi, Buddhist, and particularly in India. However, they do seem to be a minority.

What has not been mentioned is that if an evolved individual incarnates for the purpose of becoming a spiritual teacher to guide others, then they also choose whether to incarnate in a male or female body. Perhaps given the nature of society the majority choose a male body because that will suit their purpose better, but there are still many advanced souls who choose to incarnate in female form. As society evolves so perhaps the numbers of male and female masters will even out.

But in the end the male or female body is just a form for the expression of the Divine, and spiritual consciousness is nothing to do with the gender of the physical form.

Peace.

Can I please outsource all my ideas to you, iamthat?

More seriously, thank you for your kind understandings, and accurate and succinct contribution on this thread.

Admittedly, this is my understanding also.

BT

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I would hope you don't assume that I am facile in my integration of the inner work

I do not assume you are facile at all, and see where you are coming from (as you use the word "perfected" now - you simply mean continual change/evolution - whereas the God state is perfection in action), with the greatest respect to you 7L, I think the context within which you speak is merely within the human evolutionary form and consciousness. When I speak of spiritual masters, I believe they are both beyond that (whilst being in and of this world as they so choose). There is no disharmony or non-accord between inner and outer work, but the spiritual masters work inwardly first to completion/God actualization. THEN their clarity rings true with the work of the human world and they are informed not only by human matters/thoughts/knowledge but that of the Divine Will and that which is beyond human form/consciousness and the like. There is an important difference here, I believe. As to your point about non-conflation, I made the point because you posit that spiritual masters do not show mastery unless they address gender/class/economic/environmental divide and the like - I do not share your synthesis whatsoever and I do not conflate spiritual mastery with that of wordly matters, although as I said above, spiritual masters, once realized, can choose to utilize their personage in human form in such matters, if they choose to. And again their vantage point on human matters, evolution, consciousness etc. is probably much more evolved than you or I think. i.e. I would not personally assume to think that I know what their vantage point is or call them unperfected - until one also has the same level of knowing as Rumi who knows the form beyond this form, the formation of all form and Universes and the very substance of this life you and I take for real. Of course, at the end of the day though, your opinions are respected, so at the same time, please feel free to hold these opinions and see spiritual teachers such as Jesus, Buddha and the like as unperfected beings etc. I really don't mind, lol I just wanted to share my vantage point.

As I said, all with the greatest respect and admiration for all that you do, and be.

Nor do I believe you are facile in your work or your spiritual aspirations. I apologize if that came across in any way. I am not as good a writer as you are.

Be well, my friend.

BT

[FallingLeaves]

never mind