What difference does it make?

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Within Silence

Never mind. I had an explanation, but what's the point?

Hi Within Silence,

Sometimes "What's the point?" is a very good question.

Find at times just putting it out there, whether anyone agrees, or even gets it, can expand the view. At least for me.

Other times, yes, there is nothing to be said.

Up to each one to decide or find whether there's a point to it, IMO. I respect this.

Just sending this out.

[Within Silence]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi Within Silence,

Sometimes "What's the point?" is a very good question.

Find at times just putting it out there, whether anyone agrees, or even gets it, can expand the view. At least for me.

Other times, yes, there is nothing to be said.

Up to each one to decide or find whether there's a point to it, IMO. I respect this.

Just sending this out.

Thanks Moonglow.

I find that most of our "problems" "conflicts" are caused by words, and then we use more words in an attempt to solve them, which is like attempting to put a fire out by adding gasoline. And what is a word without other words to explain the first word, and then more words to describe the words used to describe those words. Words, words, words, just think of all the harm caused and blood spilled at the hand of words, and yet words have never said a thing!

Words themselves hold no inherent power of their own, thus its our conditioned perception of the words, our belief in them which gives them their power over us, yet did we not exist prior to the formation of words, prior to language? Thus, which is more powerful, that which is created or that which created it? Can the effect exist without the cause, does not the effect derive its power from the cause? Thus, we cannot not be more powerful than the words which came from us to begin with, so how could a word cause me to do something I do not want to do? Its only a word! This is like people believing that a Corporation is more powerful than the people who created it, and yet a Corporation is but a creation of the people, supported by the people hence a Corporation is but a dead thing which doesn't exist without the power/support/belief of the people, yet people think they are powerless against Corporations. And so, we have a world where peoples lives are in great conflict because of mere words, and yet, the people have simply mistakenly come to believe that the words hold more power than their will to ignore the word! Its ironic I think, sad, but ironic. And the same goes for laws, which are but words written on paper, which the words themselves hold no power of their own. And yet the whole world is moved by mere words, as if they are reality, as if they hold a possessive power of their own.

Who will give them self to silence? And I am not saying we don't need words, but that we've become spell bound by them, enchanted by them, we've usurped reality with abstractions of reality and come to believe that the word is actually what it's pointing to.

So, I'm finding that less is more; less words, less explanations, less thinking, less inner dialogue, less trying to prove this side or that side. I'm finding that everyone is free to believe whatever they wish, that's its easier to just allow everyone to say and believe whatever they want without any attempt to disprove it or change it in any way whatsoever.

“The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?” ― Zhuangzi

"Everything reverses direction upon reaching its extreme“

- thus I am returning to silence. Not that I'm never going to speak again, but that we need to return to simplicity, we have created a very complex world, a complex way of life, when in actuality, life is radically simple. When one drops words for a time this becomes painfully obvious, and then this one has them self a giant belly laugh at having been so caught up in the game of words.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Within Silence

Thanks Moonglow.

I find that most of our "problems" "conflicts" are caused by words, and then we use more words in an attempt to solve them, which is like attempting to put a fire out by adding gasoline. And what is a word without other words to explain the first word, and then more words to describe the words used to describe those words. Words, words, words, just think of all the harm caused and blood spilled at the hand of words, and yet words have never said a thing!

Words themselves hold no inherent power of their own, thus its our conditioned perception of the words, our belief in them which gives them their power over us, yet did we not exist prior to the formation of words, prior to language? Thus, which is more powerful, that which is created or that which created it? Can the effect exist without the cause, does not the effect derive its power from the cause? Thus, we cannot not be more powerful than the words which came from us to begin with, so how could a word cause me to do something I do not want to do? Its only a word! This is like people believing that a Corporation is more powerful than the people who created it, and yet a Corporation is but a creation of the people, supported by the people hence a Corporation is but a dead thing which doesn't exist without the power/support/belief of the people, yet people think they are powerless against Corporations. And so, we have a world where peoples lives are in great conflict because of mere words, and yet, the people have simply mistakenly come to believe that the words hold more power than their will to ignore the word! Its ironic I think, sad, but ironic. And the same goes for laws, which are but words written on paper, which the words themselves hold no power of their own. And yet the whole world is moved by mere words, as if they are reality, as if they hold a possessive power of their own.

Who will give them self to silence? And I am not saying we don't need words, but that we've become spell bound by them, enchanted by them, we've usurped reality with abstractions of reality and come to believe that the word is actually what it's pointing to.

So, I'm finding that less is more; less words, less explanations, less thinking, less inner dialogue, less trying to prove this side or that side. I'm finding that everyone is free to believe whatever they wish, that's its easier to just allow everyone to say and believe whatever they want without any attempt to disprove it or change it in any way whatsoever.

“The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?” ― Zhuangzi

"Everything reverses direction upon reaching its extreme“

- thus I am returning to silence. Not that I'm never going to speak again, but that we need to return to simplicity, we have created a very complex world, a complex way of life, when in actuality, life is radically simple. When one drops words for a time this becomes painfully obvious, and then this one has them self a giant belly laugh at having been so caught up in the game of words.

Hi Within Silence,

Thank you!

Silence seems a rare gift indeed in this world that at times can be so noisy.
But, also feel if silence is obtained with in, then the "noise" in a way becomes background static.

Yes, it seems words are getting deminished in how they get used in some circles.
Get tossed around to support an agenda and art of conversation seems to be getting deminished as well. Social media makes words out to be sound bites or passing comments.

Yes, lots of talking going on, but how much listening is really happening.

So, I respect the silence and find more is said with in it then endless amounts of words.

But, words are how things are conveyed and can bring more understanding and inspire. I ask at times, though, if one has true faith, then what is the need to defend it?

If one disagrees or not interested, then let him/her have that space, as well as myself.

Started the OP with the similar feeling, let each be as he/she/it is being. However one sees, feel, expresses it can bring about a little more understanding.
If one is willing to just listen, IMO.

In the silence there is a a peace and the presence of just being. Like sitting with a loved one and not a word is spoken, but each one knows exactly how the other feels.

It a gift that I treasure well and gives space for the heart to truly sing.

[sound]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hello,

What difference does it make what one believes or not?


.

Hi Moonglow :)
I 'believe' it makes a difference to the experience of the one doing the believing ... I have also come to realise that it is the actions which are fueled by beliefs which can be harmful, however they (actions) can also be very much about enriching/preserving life.
There has been some discussion recently, here in the community, about the way in which people express their beliefs, and whether they use personal pronouns, or whether they use you/we/us statements. The latter seems to attract more resistance, and the reader often feels the need to 'encourage/advise/suggest the writer 'speak for him/her self ... as an example, there is a huge difference between saying/writing, ... 'You are yet to develop the awareness needed to understand those writings' ...
AND
'I am yet to develop the awareness needed to understand those writings' ...

Its very interesting isn't it ... personally speaking, I am learning for the first time as I am speaking my thoughts ... often it is the first time i have heard myself 'utter' that particular thought, whatever it may be ... especially on an open forum where so many different subjects are covered ... perhaps at times I have avoided using pronouns when i am not ready to take on the information and apply it to myself?
I started a thread a few years back and asked people to challenge them selves and try to use only personal pronouns to describe their experiences ... it was short-lived lol ...

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by sound

Hi Moonglow :)
I 'believe' it makes a difference to the experience of the one doing the believing ... I have also come to realise that it is the actions which are fueled by beliefs which can be harmful, however they (actions) can also be very much about enriching/preserving life.
There has been some discussion recently, here in the community, about the way in which people express their beliefs, and whether they use personal pronouns, or whether they use you/we/us statements. The latter seems to attract more resistance, and the reader often feels the need to 'encourage/advise/suggest the writer 'speak for him/her self ... as an example, there is a huge difference between saying/writing, ... 'You are yet to develop the awareness needed to understand those writings' ...
AND
'I am yet to develop the awareness needed to understand those writings' ...

Its very interesting isn't it ... personally speaking, I am learning for the first time as I am speaking my thoughts ... often it is the first time i have heard myself 'utter' that particular thought, whatever it may be ... especially on an open forum where so many different subjects are covered ... perhaps at times I have avoided using pronouns when i am not ready to take on the information and apply it to myself?
I started a thread a few years back and asked people to challenge them selves and try to use only personal pronouns to describe their experiences ... it was short-lived lol ...

I remember that and I think of it often when I see people speaking for everyone.
It was an eye opener for me at the time.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by sound

Hi Moonglow :)
I 'believe' it makes a difference to the experience of the one doing the believing ... I have also come to realise that it is the actions which are fueled by beliefs which can be harmful, however they (actions) can also be very much about enriching/preserving life.
There has been some discussion recently, here in the community, about the way in which people express their beliefs, and whether they use personal pronouns, or whether they use you/we/us statements. The latter seems to attract more resistance, and the reader often feels the need to 'encourage/advise/suggest the writer 'speak for him/her self ... as an example, there is a huge difference between saying/writing, ... 'You are yet to develop the awareness needed to understand those writings' ...
AND
'I am yet to develop the awareness needed to understand those writings' ...

Its very interesting isn't it ... personally speaking, I am learning for the first time as I am speaking my thoughts ... often it is the first time i have heard myself 'utter' that particular thought, whatever it may be ... especially on an open forum where so many different subjects are covered ... perhaps at times I have avoided using pronouns when i am not ready to take on the information and apply it to myself?
I started a thread a few years back and asked people to challenge them selves and try to use only personal pronouns to describe their experiences ... it was short-lived lol ...

Hi sound,

You bring up some good points.

I usually take what someone may present on a forum as being that persons opinion/view point/or reflection. So mostly if it doesn't resonate or apply to me, then most times can let it slide.

What you present though does bring a question; If feeling offended, then why?
Which is a question I ask myself. For find when irritated by what another may say it is because it may trigger something in me. Perhaps some old issues.

Of course if someone is being all out rude about it or won't listen to any other view then suppose left with the choices to either engage in the banter or walk away from it.

Agree, it can make a difference on how something is presented and also would say in how another (including myself) chooses to respond or react.

Guess it is in the approach in some ways, but also how it is understood. Which can be tricky.

I too, also have and continue to learn how to navigate the waters on forums.

Like you present there are so many subjects covered and will add very diverse people participating. Which makes things interesting.

Yes, feel what may be believed or not seem to play in the differences and similarities that may be found.

Thank you

[sound]

Originally Posted by Self

I remember that and I think of it often when I see people speaking for everyone.
It was an eye opener for me at the time.

Yeah, it is an ongoing occurrence Self, and is the only way some people feel comfortable/confident enough to communicate I guess ... for me, its not about being offended, nor is it so much about being concerned that others might be at risk by be being 'told' how is is for them ... for me, its about redirecting the realization/understanding back to the person/author from whence it came ... it is their learning moment, first and foremost ... otherwise it becomes little more than preaching ...

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by sound

Yeah, it is an ongoing occurrence Self, and is the only way some people feel comfortable/confident enough to communicate I guess ... for me, its not about being offended, nor is it so much about being concerned that others might be at risk by be being 'told' how is is for them ... for me, its about redirecting the realization/understanding back to the person/author from whence it came ... it is their learning moment, first and foremost ... otherwise it becomes little more than preaching ...

Exactly Sound. It is a great learning tool.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by sound

Yeah, it is an ongoing occurrence Self, and is the only way some people feel comfortable/confident enough to communicate I guess ... for me, its not about being offended, nor is it so much about being concerned that others might be at risk by be being 'told' how is is for them ... for me, its about redirecting the realization/understanding back to the person/author from whence it came ... it is their learning moment, first and foremost ... otherwise it becomes little more than preaching ...

Hi sound,

Although this was responding to (member) self, it brings up some thoughts.

Redirecting the realization/understanding back to the person/author feel how it may be received may depend upon whether the person is open or feels he/she has anything to learn.

I've noticed bantering sometimes breaks out when either both sides are defending a position or someone asks for clarification and the other goes on reenforcing his/her stance. Then can see where it can come off as preaching.

Guess, may depend upon how open the person is.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi sound,

Although this was responding to (member) self, it brings up some thoughts.

Redirecting the realization/understanding back to the person/author feel how it may be received may depend upon whether the person is open or feels he/she has anything to learn.

I've noticed bantering sometimes breaks out when either both sides are defending a position or someone asks for clarification and the other goes on reenforcing his/her stance. Then can see where it can come off as preaching.

Guess, may depend upon how open the person is.

It's really just an exercise where you change from saying things like " I have found that we tend to resist spiritual......" with "I have found that I tend to resist spiritual..... "