Why does God not show him/her/itself?

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Greenslade 'n Moonglow - you're making my head spin.

Just one example:
I am not real sure if one can be conscious of something he/she is not conscious of?

Hi Miss Hepburn,

Having that reflected back at me, I see that it does make the head spin., lol

I think misreading what Greenslade presented.

Perhaps it is being aware of what one knows and what one does not.
Atleast that what comes to me.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi Greenslade,

The Samurai/Butterfly question is the second time this has come up for me today.

What comes to me is is as each observes the other, it enter each consciousness? If so then is it each experiencing being observed by the other?
Through the exchange there forms a connection. It is both. The Sumarai being the Butterfly and the Butterfly being the Sumarai, through the act of being conscious of each other and observing each. They are still what they are, but now awareness of each creates a connection with each.

Well, that's my take it., lol

God could be the itch of what one is conscious of without knowing how, what, why, one is conscious of exactly. The interaction may be observed and in hindsight thoughts form to make sense of it.

Does what one becomes conscious of changes what is being conscious of or the person experiencing it?

Do we change God in and of itself by being conscious of God or does the consciousness of God change us? If not conscious of God at all does this change God?

I am not real sure if one can be conscious of something he/she is not conscious of?
Would suppose if conscious of something it forms with in ones mind and possibly ones life in some form or another.
So, would be with in ones consciousness in some way.

Hi there Moonglow

Yes it is both. So are you God thinking you're Moonglow or are you Moonglow thinking you're... not God??

The pre-Taoist alchemists called it Triplex Unity, and basically it means that there is 'this', there is 'that' and there is 'both'. There is Moonglow, there is God and there is not just a connection but an 'overlap' when the they become each other. There is both Moonglow and God.

It's called Gnosis, which means knowing without knowing how you know. It's what Jesus was talking about much of the time, which is why some of his teachings sometimes aren't understood by Christians. Christianity teaches 'God without', the Gnostics that taught Jesus in his early days taught 'God within', as in God being within us all. It's also what you're talking about here.

The human mind tends to objectify and personify things in order to make them tangible, and often this is what's happening with God. God as consciousness isn't easy to picture because consciousness has no form, but an old, beardy dude sitting on a chair is a picture that paints a thousand words. "All That Is" is beyond human comprehension but God isn't, and often we become conscious that there is something beyond our consciousness - we become Gnostic or we know without knowing how we know.

Changes only occur because there is someone for them to occur to, otherwise they wouldn't occur. Changes don't happen TO you, they happen BECAUSE of you so there is consciousness there already. After that it's what we become conscious of and our perceptions of that consciousness that gives us our experiences.

But back to understanding what God is. If we do change God, what are we really changing? Are we changing God, are we changing our perceptions of God, are we changing God thinking he's Moonglow?

No we can't become conscious of what we are not conscious of, if we were it would be a paradox. What that does, though, is put so many things into context - as Meister Eckhart says, "!f you know God you don't know God." God is what we are not conscious of what we are not conscious of, but with Gnosis we know it's there anyway.

Originally Posted by davidsun

Alan Watts didn't quite 'get' - at least he didn't 'transmit' - the full significance of 'It', IMO.

Everything is the play of 'God' - as presented in Ch.13 of The Bhagavad Gita:

"Arjuna asked: My Lord! Who is God and what is Nature; what is Matter and what is the Self; what is that they call Wisdom, and what is it that is worth knowing? I wish to have this explained.

Lord Shri Krishna replied: O Arjuna! The body of man is the playground of the Self; and That which knows the activities of Matter, sages call the Self." I am the Omniscient self that abides in the playground of Matter; knowledge of Matter and of the all-knowing Self is wisdom.

Every 'I' is an 'eye' of God (hence the 'Omni' in 'Omniscient'!). This includes both those self-proclaimed un'spirit'ual people who choose to believe and 'play' at not being 'God' (like you) and those who choose to believe and play at being an aspect of 'God' (like me).

No David, you didn't get what Alan Watts meant. What he meant was exactly what you're saying, that everything is in the play of 'God'. God doesn't do Spirituality, he has no use for beliefs, ideologies and theologies. That was his point. And for the record, I never proclaimed myself to be non-Spiritual - making proclamations is pretensious and that's something I'm not. And Alan Watts said that it was the Spiritual people who were God playing at being not-God. But I guess agenda is something after all.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Greenslade 'n Moonglow - you're making my head spin.

Just one example:
I am not real sure if one can be conscious of something he/she is not conscious of?

That's quite the paradox, and I hope that wasn't his brains leaking out of his ears.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

You mean like a child at play, only playing, lost in play, enjoying playing, just being a child?
Good question.
Or the Yogi in deep meditation conscious of the One Being in all?
How about both of them!

Playing dress-up games, yes. It's been said that we are the Universe trying to figure itself out and so many more sayings of a similar ilk. That's what children are doing when they play dress-up games, it's a part of the forming of their identity or sense of "I am" - the Jungian definition.

Does God find a sense of himself in you believing that God is......? Can God be God if there is nothing that isn't God?

Similarly with the Yogi? Didn't Jesus also say something similar?

Does God have beliefs, knowing that there is nothing outside himself? Is God egotistical?

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there Moonglow

Yes it is both. So are you God thinking you're Moonglow or are you Moonglow thinking you're... not God??

The pre-Taoist alchemists called it Triplex Unity, and basically it means that there is 'this', there is 'that' and there is 'both'. There is Moonglow, there is God and there is not just a connection but an 'overlap' when the they become each other. There is both Moonglow and God.

It's called Gnosis, which means knowing without knowing how you know. It's what Jesus was talking about much of the time, which is why some of his teachings sometimes aren't understood by Christians. Christianity teaches 'God without', the Gnostics that taught Jesus in his early days taught 'God within', as in God being within us all. It's also what you're talking about here.

The human mind tends to objectify and personify things in order to make them tangible, and often this is what's happening with God. God as consciousness isn't easy to picture because consciousness has no form, but an old, beardy dude sitting on a chair is a picture that paints a thousand words. "All That Is" is beyond human comprehension but God isn't, and often we become conscious that there is something beyond our consciousness - we become Gnostic or we know without knowing how we know.

Changes only occur because there is someone for them to occur to, otherwise they wouldn't occur. Changes don't happen TO you, they happen BECAUSE of you so there is consciousness there already. After that it's what we become conscious of and our perceptions of that consciousness that gives us our experiences.

But back to understanding what God is. If we do change God, what are we really changing? Are we changing God, are we changing our perceptions of God, are we changing God thinking he's Moonglow?

No we can't become conscious of what we are not conscious of, if we were it would be a paradox. What that does, though, is put so many things into context - as Meister Eckhart says, "!f you know God you don't know God." God is what we are not conscious of what we are not conscious of, but with Gnosis we know it's there anyway.

Hi Greenslade,

If looking at God as Consciousness being, then all that is being gives form to what is being.

I don't feel by knowing it's there anyway is not so much not being conscious of God, as much as it is not fully knowing what God is exactly. It becomes something that can not be explained and need not to be because it is known to be present.

I don't feel we change God if God is consciousness being and through this creation arises. It seems more like expanding the consciousness of our own being and all the stuff it may and does contain, which gives the gift to co-create.

There is the individual consciousness which may seem limited in some ways in what may be obtained. There is the group consciousness which seems composed of all the individuals and what may be obtained to form connections.
Then there seems the universal consciousness which may hold with in the individuals, groups, and nature (for lack of better term) and what may be obtained.

All interacting with each and adding to just consciousness of being, which has no form, yet takes form through all the other manifestations. Which may be the God element. Or atleast how it forms in my mind at present.

We are part of it and is with in us because are also consciously being. Just in each individual way one has been created or formed to be. So, may seem seperate or not of it (or God if you like). Perhaps through this individual experience come to better understand what it is to be cousciously being.

Conscious of being creation reflecting itself through All forming a connection with in and without.

Not changing God, but oneself and thus ones perspective. I am being, and everything is being now. Not seperate in consciousness of each, but allowed to be as each is at present. God in motion perhaps?

Thank you

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Busby

Just imagine how the world would change if God would speak quite clearly to all of the 8 billion Earth inhabitants at the same time and say something like this: On the 2nd of May this year the sun will appear in the sky as always but it will be green. It will stay green for one complete turn of the planet so that everyone can see it and so know, following my words to you all, that I am.

This would be no skin off God's nose and would allow us to get on with things. And as we also know changing the colour of the sun for a day would be easy, requiring only a miracle, of which there are many in the Bible, so having a decisive miracle 2000 years later could only be positive.

This would solve quite a number of obvious problems and we wouldn't be requested 'to believe', something which has caused and still causes friction and has no point anyway. Instead of believing (in whatever) we'd KNOW.

Then we could live our lives accordingly without fighting among ourselves as to who is right.

There are plenty reasons such thing would not happen.
1. For God, these 8 billions are just a small part of the game . He has many more species , galaxies to take care off and handle . We may not be knowing the language (not necessarily the spoken languages like English , Chinese , Sanskrit etc) he may want us know , understand and speak with. If he wants to do this , he can do sheer out of love and NOT out of any compulsion to solve / answer any hypothetical questions .
2. God is worried about enjoyment of all for most of the time . He wants these 8 billion to enjoy the route to His discovery and overcome the challenges along the route and thereby enjoy their travel (our life span ) on earth .
3. God has umpteen mechanisms to handle the chaos if these 8 millions go wrong way. He may just put some life into some virus and bring the economies to a grinding halt. Its for the onlookers to understand Him .
4. He believes in demonstrating what He talks and loves about . As He and the world and universe He resides in works in perfect order with perfect discipline with perfect rules unconditionally all the time , He does not want to do random miracle tricks to satisfy some agnostic or non-believers.

Originally Posted by Busby

Let's get rid of all 'beliefs', all superstitions, all religious traditions, all church buildings, all professional preachers, all funny clothes, hats, bishops and popes and their ilk - in fact let's rid ourselves of the whole pot and be able to look God directly in the eye.

Why should he/she/it want it to be otherwise.?????

This again is not right . If we want airplanes to travel from one place to place to another , then we must have aircraft manufacturing place , pilot training centres , flight simulation training , basic primary / college education centres . The same way knowing and understanding spirituality is not child play . It does require lot of guidance , inspiration , demonstration etc . If these preachers / religions can not come to one common teachings , it may be confusion to some . But that's not reason enough to warrant to get rid of them . There is plenty of room for meaningful play for everybody and wrong / unscientific /deceptive /pretentious will get eventually fazed out over time.

[Busby]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

That's quite the paradox, and I hope that wasn't his brains leaking out of his ears.

Betrand Russell once said something like; 'If you have an open mind just be careful your brains don't fall out'.

[Busby]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

There are plenty reasons such thing would not happen.
1. For God, these 8 billions are just a small part of the game . He has many more species , galaxies to take care off and handle . We may not be knowing the language (not necessarily the spoken languages like English , Chinese , Sanskrit etc) he may want us know , understand and speak with. If he wants to do this , he can do sheer out of love and NOT out of any compulsion to solve / answer any hypothetical questions .
2. God is worried about enjoyment of all for most of the time . He wants these 8 billion to enjoy the route to His discovery and overcome the challenges along the route and thereby enjoy their travel (our life span ) on earth .
3. God has umpteen mechanisms to handle the chaos if these 8 millions go wrong way. He may just put some life into some virus and bring the economies to a grinding halt. Its for the onlookers to understand Him .
4. He believes in demonstrating what He talks and loves about . As He and the world and universe He resides in works in perfect order with perfect discipline with perfect rules unconditionally all the time , He does not want to do random miracle tricks to satisfy some agnostic or non-believers.


This again is not right . If we want airplanes to travel from one place to place to another , then we must have aircraft manufacturing place , pilot training centres , flight simulation training , basic primary / college education centres . The same way knowing and understanding spirituality is not child play . It does require lot of guidance , inspiration , demonstration etc . If these preachers / religions can not come to one common teachings , it may be confusion to some . But that's not reason enough to warrant to get rid of them . There is plenty of room for meaningful play for everybody and wrong / unscientific /deceptive /pretentious will get eventually fazed out over time.

You are in a very enviable position HITESH SHAH, you obviously know things about 'god' which are or have been hidden from us mere humans for eternity.
You have also, if you reread what you have written, removed any omnipotence he/she/it may have had. Those 'tiddly' 'difficulties' you have taken as examples would be removed or dealt with in the twinkling of an eye by any force which has or is capable of created our universe.

Even after all this time and all the responses I still look upon my question as being perfectly justified.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Busby

You are in a very enviable position HITESH SHAH, you obviously know things about 'god' which are or have been hidden from us mere humans for eternity.
You have also, if you reread what you have written, removed any omnipotence he/she/it may have had. Those 'tiddly' 'difficulties' you have taken as examples would be removed or dealt with in the twinkling of an eye by any force which has or is capable of created our universe.

Even after all this time and all the responses I still look upon my question as being perfectly justified.

I can understand the sarcasm in the response.

The tiddly difficulties you are talking about are always removed through His grace. Many realized souls have realized the same and talked about it many times. But onlookers want to c the difficulties removed as per their own choice and perceptions . One can not bind Him to their own conditions of proving His existence . That is my understanding .

Nevertheless I don't question your wish. And you are always justified in raising whatever you wish.