Hi! I am a Chinese Buddhist.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I agree Gem in how you put it . .

There was suggestion that some Zen masters don’t waste energy talking about their self realizations because of the limitations that are of the written word .

The poem that was posted was supposedly from an unknown Zen master as Icy put it . .

I was seeing if Icy understood that the Zen master evaluated his realizations in order to convey them into a poem form . The intellectual mind being the filter of such understandings .

It just seemed a bit odd that on one hand it is waste of energy talking about any of it when a Zen master obviously begs to differ otherwise he wouldn’t of produced his understandings via the written word .

Where there are teachings of certain faiths / religions / Meditations which emphasise not speaking, not thinking, not evaluating and such likes but have been at some point spoken of and evaluated to be so .

Like with most things there are contradictions and ironies any which way you turn .
Its like saying I have evaluated through the Intellectual mind that not thinking via the Intellectual mind is the way to go . doh!! lol .

x daz x

I guess the zen master write a poem as does anyone else, but the OP said it's a waste of time for him, and that he isn't a zen master , and I think if maybe it's best to ask each respective poet about their own composition process.

I think if there's an intellectual ability, then best to practice that and hone it. The martial arts ethos is body mind and spirit and it's best to practice all three.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by icy_su

Well there are actually a ton of books about the intellectual part of Buddhism. You may want to take a look.

I did read a lot of them, although today I am not willing to discuss those theories. I am benefited a lot from the books, but only along the process of my Pure Land Buddhism practice.

That is to say, I know learning or discussing on the theories is meaningless without practice. But at least it gives you curiosity so that you may try practicing~~~

That's a good point.

Yet Buddhism Yuan is not that simple. I mean when dose a person really go into Buddhism? It's not simply that you are curious now and you can begin practicing. You need to accumulate lots and lots of fortune in your past lives, and in this life, through your efforts of helping others.

All the great Buddhists I know are great people in their lives. Only in this way can they creat Yuan with Buddha. For example, me. I watched my Mom practicing Buddhism for so many years. I tried as she requested. But I didn't feel anything and didn't believe in the mantras etc. Yet along the years I grow up, I followed my Mom's advice that always try to be good to others.

A few years ago, I was in a very very difficult situation. At that time, I found there's no way, no person who can help me out. So I tried to read a mantra. It was in the ceremony of Quan-yin Buddha's birthday. And all of a sudden, I understand the mantra's meaning. Well actually it was a very very common mantra and I had seen it long before but just didn't belive it. It was from that point that I began to really practice Pure Land Buddhism.

Hence for all people who are confused and are wondering outside the gate of Buddhism, I have only one suggestion -- try to accumulate fortune as much as possible by helping others.

As I said, Buddhism is really not like learning a theory from a book.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

It doesn't matter Icy if Pure Land Buddhism is a simple process that one follows or indures .

The method has been attained through the intellectual mind .

People go about there day living a simple life without thinking they do . They only know they are when they stop to think about it .

It then can be called a simple life .

''To make up'' any spiritual movement based around simplicity or complexity matters not 'its the making it up bit' that I am speaking of .

People can chant buddha all day long and still not reach the promised land .

People can sit on a mountain top all year round and not reach enlightenment .

Its not about buddha or the mountain top .

x dazzle x

Are you experienced in the practice of Buddhism?

Originally Posted by Mayflow

Whoever follows the dharma
Is joyful here and joyful there.
and in both worlds rejoices
And how greatly
When seeing the good that has been done.
For great is the harvest in this world,
And greater still in the next.
However many holy words you read,
However many you speak,
What good will they do you
If you do not act upon them?
Are you a shepherd
Who counts another man's sheep,
Never sharing the way?
Read as few words as you like,
And speak fewer.
But act upon the dharma.
Give up the old ways -
Passion, enmity, folly.
Know the truth and find peace.
Share the way.

=Buddha=Love

From the Dhammapada (the path of truth)
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/SHALOM/dhammapada.html

This poem speaks a lot~~ it's a very good conclusion of the discussion I believe. Thank you Mayflow!

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

Are you experienced in the practice of Buddhism?

I can relate to a buddhists understanding Gem through understandings attained via my individual journey . I can relate to a buddhist understanding of one's life and death cycles, eightfold paths, karmas and such likes ..

I can also relate to christians abiding to the 10 commandments, but it matters not what religion or what spiritual movement one can relate to because all of them have been created within mind .

This was my angle or my point for beyond the intellectual composition of such creations they don't exist .

There is nothing wrong with anything created/constructed but at a point one will notice thats all that they are but I suppose one has to eat all sorts of candy before one is made ill .

x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I can relate to a buddhists understanding Gem through understandings attained via my individual journey . I can relate to a buddhist understanding of one's life and death cycles, eightfold paths, karmas and such likes ..

I can also relate to christians abiding to the 10 commandments, but it matters not what religion or what spiritual movement one can relate to because all of them have been created within mind .

This was my angle or my point for beyond the intellectual composition of such creations they don't exist .

There is nothing wrong with anything created/constructed but at a point one will notice thats all that they are but I suppose one has to eat all sorts of candy before one is made ill .

x daz x

I guess I'll have to assume that you didn't practice Buddhism since you gave me spin instead of answering the question. I associate with Buddhist organisations, and trained in Buddhist meditation. Such associations and training have had no adverse effects on me.

A person learns through their own direct experience... which isn't considered comparable to another person... and as the person gains insight, they are able to understand by relating to the philosophical principles.

The principles aren't comprehensible without direct experience, and they're not intended to be rote; they demonstrate that universal principles apply to different individual experiences.

I come to your last paragraph: it just one of those sleasy insults (which belittled partonised and disrespect) that is metaphorically intoned so as to get around the rules. Admin can't really pin it on you, but I got you pegged.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

I guess I'll have to assume that you didn't practice Buddhism since you gave me spin instead of answering the question. I associate with Buddhist organisations, and trained in Buddhist meditation. Such associations and training have had no adverse effects on me.

A person learns through their own direct experience... which isn't considered comparable to another person... and as the person gains insight, they are able to understand by relating to the philosophical principles.

The principles aren't comprehensible without direct experience, and they're not intended to be rote; they demonstrate that universal principles apply to different individual experiences.

I come to your last paragraph: it just one of those sleasy insults (which belittled partonised and disrespect) that is metaphorically intoned so as to get around the rules. Admin can't really pin it on you, but I got you pegged.

I can say I practice meditation and yoga for example but if someone asks if I practice buddhism or christianity its not that straightforward as I see individuals 'just being how they are naturally' .. Its like one cannot practice being a nice person, you are either naturally nice without thinking/practicing it or your not . To associate one's self as a christian or whatever doesn't compute to me but I understand that many like to associate themselves to a particular movement .

I agree that people learn through direct experience as have I, but my thoughts towards Icy was about the intellectual wranglings of any spiritual or religious movement be it simple or complexed in nature . It was about the spoken word and how some masters discuss and intellectually try and define and explain what consists of their realizations . It's not a waste of time or energy for some to engage in discussion about what lies beyond the discussion . Some masters write books telling people not to read books lol ...

My last paragraph was not an insult Gem you seem to think the worse of me in nearly every conversation we have had from a long while ago when I genuinely wished you well when we shared some open moments together . The reason why I said what I did regarding eating the candy is because at a particular point one would of exhausted one's self through searching for this and for that regarding self be it through christianity or be it through a religious sect and such likes and will realize that none of it opens the door to self because at a point all these teachings don't exist .

At a point one will be sick of the multitudes of themes / ideas / notions that surround one's spiritual advancement and one will conclude that nothing fits the bill .


x daz x

icy-su, thankyou so much for all your sharing here.

When I ask for guidance, it appears in some form or other, and your posts here have given me the keys that I need at the moment.

So much that people speak of with regards to Buddhism, resonates with me. Somewhere inside myself, I feel the wisdom of what is being said. But I feel a mental block to the explanation...and it is as if I can't focus on all those words.

I have found it quite distressing and I have felt I needed to hear people speak from their heart and their experience.

What I take from your post here, is that it's ok for me to be in this place of no-thought - that it is the right place for me at this moment.

Also, although I resonate with a Buddhist attitude toward living life, I've felt that somehow to take up that path more fully isn't right for me...even, that I am not good enough for it. So the other thing you have shown me here, is that that is ok too - if Buddhism is meant to be my path one day, then I will recognise it when that time comes, but for now, striving to live right is a good place to be.

Again, thankyou and I wish you well in your development x

Originally Posted by Meadows

icy-su, thankyou so much for all your sharing here.

When I ask for guidance, it appears in some form or other, and your posts here have given me the keys that I need at the moment.

So much that people speak of with regards to Buddhism, resonates with me. Somewhere inside myself, I feel the wisdom of what is being said. But I feel a mental block to the explanation...and it is as if I can't focus on all those words.

I have found it quite distressing and I have felt I needed to hear people speak from their heart and their experience.

What I take from your post here, is that it's ok for me to be in this place of no-thought - that it is the right place for me at this moment.

Also, although I resonate with a Buddhist attitude toward living life, I've felt that somehow to take up that path more fully isn't right for me...even, that I am not good enough for it. So the other thing you have shown me here, is that that is ok too - if Buddhism is meant to be my path one day, then I will recognise it when that time comes, but for now, striving to live right is a good place to be.

Again, thankyou and I wish you well in your development x

Dear Meadows,

It's nice to see your posts. And it's very nice to see your efforts in Buddhism. :-)

With regard to your question -- the place of no thought. Well actually no thought means more than blank mindded. From my experience, the status of no thought comes from two things. One is that you clear up your mind, and get rid of all negative thinking and feeling. If you read the previous posts, you can see that I call it the process of eradicating unwanted grass. In Buddhism, we believe the greed, hatred and delusion (this English word is not accurate but I can't find a more proper one) are the three poisons. We make lots of efforts to get rid of them. When you can really be away from greed, that is you need very few but you give a lot; when you are away from hatred, that is you never get angry but always treat others with love; when you are away from delusion, that is you know things come and go naturally and you do not pursue hard meaninglessly --- you'll find that you are so much released and relaxed. Lots of our thoughts come from these poisons.

Another way to become no-thoughts is that you live at this moment. And that is why when I quoted Mayflow's signature sentence, I changed it a bit -- Chop wood, carry water, do everything that seems right at THIS MOMENT. Draw all your attention to this very moment, and you will feel released. This is also taught in Taosim. Religions are similar in many respects. There's a saying in Taoism that I found very inspiring -- if you feel sad, you are living in the past; if you feel anxcious, you are living in future. Hence, live in this moment, and your unnecessary thoughts will be largely reduced.

With regard to your question of "whether you can fully take the path". Here is the problem. It seems to me that you have not found a stable and concentrated way to practice Buddhism. Actually, for other religions, it is exactly the same. We fully understand why Christianity encourages people to believe in one God, it's because whatever you believe, whatever the path you take, you need to really focus. If you have not found your path, and are still wandering, it's very understandable that you are hesitating. When you have made up your mind, be it in Buddhism or Christianity, you'll know the path and you'll go through.

But you are so right that "if Buddhism is meant to be my path one day, then I will recognise it when that time comes, but for now, striving to live right is a good place to be." Buddha says, he cannot lead the person who has no Yuan to him. I didn't have the Yuan much until two years ago. Util two years ago Buddhism was almost like Christianity to me -- I knew it's a respectable religion and that's it. You see, I began meditating one year before I began practicing Buddhism. Living right is a great attitude in life. It will certainly lead you to all good things, in your daily life and your spiritual pursuit.

But don't be disappointed. Yuan is a miraculous thing. When you have done lots of good things, which means you have accumulated lots of fortune. Yuan will come. It will lead you to a proper guide, or to some miraculous things. I never want to make people to believe Buddhism is superstitious, but miraculous things do happen. But never pursue them. As a Buddhist, I should not induce people to Buddhism by telling them mystery. But I know most of people would rather believe in mysterous things rather than following the path of being good and do right... You will know it when it happens.

I have said so much. Hope you do not get confused by this long post~~

Love,
Icy

[running]

I'm enjoying and understand what your saying about doing good things and living in the moment. I'm only asking some things so I have a better understanding of what the process and objective. You haven't mentioned anything about bliss so here are my thoughts and questions.

If someone is in bliss how is there much room for anything other than good thoughts and feeling happy? I'm asking because you say its more than being thoughtless but haven't mentioned how one feels. Are you speaking of a state without bliss? Its been my experience that bliss is what makes the mind quiet. And squashes suffering. Meaning its hard to suffer if you feel good. To go beyond suffering. I thought Buddhism was about freeing oneself from suffering. I would imagine then bliss is what Buddhist are searching for. Am I correct or am I lost somewhere? I'm not a Buddhist so I'm just going by here say.

Originally Posted by icy_su

Dear Meadows,

It's nice to see your posts. And it's very nice to see your efforts in Buddhism. :-)

With regard to your question -- the place of no thought. Well actually no thought means more than blank mindded. From my experience, the status of no thought comes from two things. One is that you clear up your mind, and get rid of all negative thinking and feeling. If you read the previous posts, you can see that I call it the process of eradicating unwanted grass. In Buddhism, we believe the greed, hatred and delusion (this English word is not accurate but I can't find a more proper one) are the three poisons. We make lots of efforts to get rid of them. When you can really be away from greed, that is you need very few but you give a lot; when you are away from hatred, that is you never get angry but always treat others with love; when you are away from delusion, that is you know things come and go naturally and you do not pursue hard meaninglessly --- you'll find that you are so much released and relaxed. Lots of our thoughts come from these poisons.

Another way to become no-thoughts is that you live at this moment. And that is why when I quoted Mayflow's signature sentence, I changed it a bit -- Chop wood, carry water, do everything that seems right at THIS MOMENT. Draw all your attention to this very moment, and you will feel released. This is also taught in Taosim. Religions are similar in many respects. There's a saying in Taoism that I found very inspiring -- if you feel sad, you are living in the past; if you feel anxcious, you are living in future. Hence, live in this moment, and your unnecessary thoughts will be largely reduced.

With regard to your question of "whether you can fully take the path". Here is the problem. It seems to me that you have not found a stable and concentrated way to practice Buddhism. Actually, for other religions, it is exactly the same. We fully understand why Christianity encourages people to believe in one God, it's because whatever you believe, whatever the path you take, you need to really focus. If you have not found your path, and are still wandering, it's very understandable that you are hesitating. When you have made up your mind, be it in Buddhism or Christianity, you'll know the path and you'll go through.

But you are so right that "if Buddhism is meant to be my path one day, then I will recognise it when that time comes, but for now, striving to live right is a good place to be." Buddha says, he cannot lead the person who has no Yuan to him. I didn't have the Yuan much until two years ago. Util two years ago Buddhism was almost like Christianity to me -- I knew it's a respectable religion and that's it. You see, I began meditating one year before I began practicing Buddhism. Living right is a great attitude in life. It will certainly lead you to all good things, in your daily life and your spiritual pursuit.

But don't be disappointed. Yuan is a miraculous thing. When you have done lots of good things, which means you have accumulated lots of fortune. Yuan will come. It will lead you to a proper guide, or to some miraculous things. I never want to make people to believe Buddhism is superstitious, but miraculous things do happen. But never pursue them. As a Buddhist, I should not induce people to Buddhism by telling them mystery. But I know most of people would rather believe in mysterous things rather than following the path of being good and do right... You will know it when it happens.

I have said so much. Hope you do not get confused by this long post~~

Love,
Icy