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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #61  
Old 01-05-2022, 09:13 AM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
obviously not.
What is true self and what is false self is decided by your ego, and I'm keeping it simple for now.

True and false are decided by the ego, the understanding there is that the ego is differentiated consciousness. That also gives us reflection.

Your reality is defined by your perceptions, your perceptions are defined by your beliefs and your beliefs are defined by your definitions. Where does your definition of 'ego' come from? Because from a Spiritual perspective, if your definition of the ego is your own perceptions then what you base everything you say about the ego on is an 'invented thing'.

Clinically you are completely functionless if you don't have an ego, as severe emotional trauma and a visit to a monastery and monks whop have achieved 'true dissolution' of the ego have shown.

Maya is making up your own definition of the ego and calling it Spirituality when there is a perfectly good Spiritual understanding available. And generally emotion is a 'bad thing' because it's a response/reaction.
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  #62  
Old 01-05-2022, 09:41 AM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
Yes I see what you're saying alright. So there is some kind of disjoint operating for those in ignorance who think that the Ahamkara
and ego are separate experiences and one must die before the other can exist, hence their big dualistic claims when in fact they are
part and parcel of the same thing.
Ego is a translated Ahamkara, they're the same thing. Ego is Latin for 'I', Aham is Sanskrit for 'I'. In Jungian the ego has its 'contents' and in Sanskrit the Aham has its karas or 'invented things'. Both the 'contents' and the 'invented things' are roughly the 'things' of perceptual reality. so what one perceives the self and the ego to be is an 'invented thing'. The so-called 'Spiritual self' and the Spiritual Being' are constructs of the ego and are what Jung would call Personas or masks of convenience. Not real, invented.

I spent some time delving into this very subject because I wanted to find something more meaningful. I found a very detailed piece on the Ahamkara that went into all kinds of 'background' about it, and the more I read the more obvious it was that what we in the West call psychology was very much an integral part of the religion/philosophy of the East. Every bit of Sanskrit I read about had a equivalent in modern psychology

Understanding the ego/Ahamkara dovetails nicely into other areas of Spiritual understanding, including
"The world, indeed, is like a heat haze.
Things have no form in themselves."
Lao Tzu
The Tao Te Ching

So my question is, is there any genuine 'self' enquiry when that 'self' is an 'invented thing'? In 'self' awareness what is the awareness relative to?

The unconscious is a part of the self, how does that play its part in either self awareness or self enquiry?
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  #63  
Old 01-05-2022, 12:18 PM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
So my question is, is there any genuine 'self' enquiry when that 'self' is an 'invented thing'? In 'self' awareness what is the awareness relative to?

The unconscious is a part of the self, how does that play its part in either self awareness or self enquiry?
Self-inquiry is like letting self search so hard for itself - and without any success - that it exhausts itself. Eventually... It's like a stick used to stir the embers of a fire. Eventually it too is consumed.

There is no self in the sense self thinks there is, but it has to come to its own conclusion. Trying to convince self (ego or Ahamkara) it doesn't really exist doesn't work all too well.

Body, mind, thoughts, emotions and even conscious and unconscious in the sense we normally think of them are all of the non-existent self. In the language of Advaita they are unreal and in the language of Buddhism they are empty.
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  #64  
Old 01-05-2022, 12:41 PM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
There is no self in the sense self thinks there is, but it has to come to its own conclusion. Trying to convince self (ego or Ahamkara) it doesn't really exist doesn't work all too well.
The sense of self comes from the ego/Ahamkara and without that there is no sense of self. This is where the differentiated consciousness comes in. The self is undifferentiated consciousness so the self has no sense of itself. And there's an Atman/Brahman thing going on. Since the sense of self is a created perception and that in turn 'creates' consciousness, Spiritually they unreal or empty.

So when all of that is taken away who are you/we? When everything we perceive ourselves to be is 'fake', what's left? And again there's an Atman/Brahman thing going on.

What does or doesn't exist is decided by the ego/Ahamkara that doesn't exist, what is empty decides what is empty or not so what is convincing the ego and the self they don't exist?

Brahman can't be everything when everything doesn't amount to very much.
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  #65  
Old 01-05-2022, 05:57 PM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
So when all of that is taken away who are you/we? When everything we perceive ourselves to be is 'fake', what's left?
We are Atman and Atman is Brahman, the impersonal Source. When everything is stripped away what's left? No thing, just awareness/consciousness. That which is aware of things including body, mind, thoughts, emotions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Brahman can't be everything when everything doesn't amount to very much.
Name and form doesn't amount to much but the underlying "substance" - Brahman - does. For instance is Brahman between the stars? Between the galaxies? Between two thoughts? There doesn't seem to be anything between those things, and the same apparent nothingness between them also underlies and pervades them. Lends them existence. It's the Water to all the wave thingies.

And It hides in plain sight...
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  #66  
Old 01-05-2022, 07:09 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Ref post 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
So there is...
... the world through.
sharing perspective.

I am confused. Why are you saying all this. There are infinite selves. The unique relationship of each one with infinity or god source is governed energy motionally and emotionally. It's all one thing being and becoming evermore here and now ever evolving. Its all you, infinity cocreating with infinity.
I'm not saying one has to let go of the false self, but suffering will be part of that and usually people do that for again a true will of true self and it all goes to infinity.
Nothing will be lost. All suffering will be recompensated. And come to full realisation.
The emotion is not telling you you have to enjoy life. It's just a relativity indicator.
The purpose for suffering will also be revealed. And the perfection of all of it.
Because there exists no one but you. No matter who you will be or what you will be. And you are infinite and perfect evermore. You cannot stop your perfection from being and becoming evermore perfect and evermore perfect and evermore perfect.

What people call God is always here and now. Omni presently. And so dreaming of its evermore infinity of being and becoming. Evermore aware of its infinity, ever expandingly, evermore perfectly. Evermore realisingly. Of evermore unconditional support and love of all as one as all. And in all of that you can still choose to suffer. Things like false self and delusions or fears or misunderstandings. But those are all evermore relative to God Source. Temporary. And inseperable from it. Always perfect in evermore becoming also in realisation.

Also in the sense that you can say "I have found something other than God. I am certain of it!" And in a sense you always will as God wills it too. But as long as that remains relative to God, your findings will forevermore become evermore perfect and better and greater and more satisfying or fun or joyful or whatever you wanna call that evermore improvement. Evermore resolution and expansion of it also in depth and broadness. No matter how limitted your awareness you are always inseperable from it. For if you were seperable from it then... its like so great that its even greater than all of existence that has ever been before it. Then all things would be relative to that and you'd again be in the infinite being of gods ever expansion.

There is no end really. Why even try to understand it when you realise its all a dream. Infinite. Its all for the enjoyment of it evermore. The dream is evermore real and there is nothing outside of it, except its own nature of ever expansion and infinity. And limitlessness and endlessness. And even if one says "but its difficult to enjoy any of it!" then one is inevitably announcing to God their desire to realise it and it is in that instant and moment a done deal. It is... Done... It is eternal law. And the more you suffer the more grand your creations will become. In the sense that NONE of us can tell you about God in the way that only you can. Making your value infinitely unique and infinitely evermore valuable in ever expansion. Doesnt mean that things come to an end. Just the lack of realisation will inevitably come to an end. But not in the way that I can say it. Only you can become it evermore you and you and infinite you.

And the more one lets go of limitations, as if one is lacking something, the more you naturally come into alignment with the ever expanding Awareness and Bliss of GodSource and simply embrace the evermore infinite and eternal journey of evermore becoming. Of evermore freedom. Evermore bliss. Evermore new. And surprise. And knowledge and well being. There is no end. Its all perfect inside of you and outside of you. And infinite in evermore becoming of its evermore perfection evermore and more and more.

Cant desire something without it becoming, even the lack of desire creates desire. The more one lets go and allows the perfection of all of that also inside of oneself. The perfection is even in the perspective. And it is not a static thing. It is infinite and evermore realisable and it will evermore be realised. There is no rush and even in rush you cannot ever get it done. Cause whatever you give your attention to keeps becoming more. So even if you want it to be done you can experience that in evermore infinite and better ways. The defining moments of life are temporary. Fleeting.

And ofcourse there is the angry or depressed person who experiences being disconnected from all of it, and that is also perfect as what they will realise will be better and more perfect than any and all of it. Evermore and more and more. Never endingly.

As god is inseperable therefor the dream is infinite. Even saying that it will never come to an end is not good enough. Because that too implies a limitation to the infinity of God. It's all here and now and always has been and always will be evermore fully realised in a good way. Dont even have to realise how it is all perfect in order for it all to be perfect its that perfect. but ofcourse we are speaking for humanity now and all the good things that will come for humanity. And you can remove yourself from humanity to infinite degrees and you will not be limitted from any and all of it. But the goodness for humanity to come has already begun. A long time ago. It is just going to be realised evermore now. The whole never ending ever expanding infinity of all of it.

They are going to transcend that duality forever now. Forevermore. You will find it evermore in all things. It has never been a condition. There has never been a condition. When one wakes up, that will not be the end. It is actually when the infinite dream will begin. Every single being on this planet and in all of existence. Evermore perfect in evermore becoming evermore perfect also in evermore realisation of its and your evermore bliss. Also evermore realised by you, with you, through you, for you, as you, from you, to you, etc. You're not ever gonna get it done, so no rush, cause you also cannot get it wrong. Cause its never finished. Even tho this reality may end, and we enter a better one, the perfection of this one will still also be realised evermore in all of that also. To infinity and beyond.
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  #67  
Old 02-05-2022, 10:29 AM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
That which is aware of things including body, mind, thoughts, emotions.
It comes to the state where there are no 'things/

There is something between the stars but science hasn't got a handle on it yet, but they're calling it 'dark matter'. Nature abhors a vacuum the same as the mind abhors the silence or emptiness, and our brains just keeps on dropping those thoughts onto the pool of our consciousness anyway because it's just following its nature. But as they're forming, dropping and making their ripples on out consciousness there is still something there beyond thought. Beyond thought is not a vacuum.
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  #68  
Old 02-05-2022, 10:35 AM
Greenslade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
I am confused. Why are you saying all this. There are infinite selves
That is your belief, not a fact. And since this is a thread about self enquiry which one of those infinite selfs should wake up? Is the self that is aware and the self that should wake up different to the one that typed in your post?
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  #69  
Old 03-05-2022, 04:22 AM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
That is your...
... typed in your post?
The self is evermore awakening. It doesnt have to do this. It's always a choice of what to awaken more to. As awakening is just a word, one can awaken more to sleep. And it's all infinite. There are probably even aspects of non choice that one can become aware of. But thats still a choice. But in every choice there is a relativity to the overal being, which is ever awakening, what people call God Source. Every choice is infinite. Cause every choice opens up more new choices. Every awakening opens up new pathways of awakening.
It is all pretty confusing, if you ignore the emotions.
The relativity indicator is what allows one to come more in alignment with ones own true will and intention. For example, if you're confused and you seek clarity, then you awaken evermore to the seeking of clarity. And the desire to find it. Which if you consider the emotion, is not pure desire in that case. So rather than awakening to more seeking, one can choose to awaken more to the finding of clarity. Or to clarity itself.

We can say every self is fake and false. Because it is infinite. And never finished. And we can say it is real, because every awakening is in alignment with the energy that is awakening. The frequency of the consciousness. That is always expanding and evolving. What kind of frequencies are there? Infinite. But, every frequency is in fact just a duality. It is still all always a vibration of awareness. Of positive and negative, that is relative... Relative to what? Relative to Source. God Source. Which is what makes it all either negative or positive for the awareness that is relative to it.

And as you awaken to things, you can feel this relativity between your awakening and that of your Source. Due to being a vibrational extension of it.

So what people like to call truth... True self. Can either be a very negative truth that keeps becoming more and more true the more one awakens to it. And it can be a posisitive truth that keeps becoming better and better the more one awakens to it. And thus also more and more true. Therefor truth, is irrelevant. As every truth if focused upon long enough can manifest. But one always feels the relativity of their truth to their overal greater non-physical Source Consciousness which holds all of their desires in evermore becoming. So at a certain point of negativity the awareness begins to contradict itself and diminishes also in ability to choose, which is why we can call it a false self. And that is why the true self is always the self and awareness of it that feels best emotionally. That is energy motionally, frequentially, and vibrationally, most in alignment with itself. This true self is eternal and infinite. And ever expanding. And we are on the leading edge of it, extensionally, here and now in this time and space reality.

And every experience here and now, in this time and space reality causes new preferences to be born. This is so for every consciousness here and now in this universe or just this planet. These preferences are then taken by God Source and answered emmediately. Everything that is asked is given instantly. And from this new given reality new consciousness is born. Which then ask for more. And on it goes.

Then the human asks. If it is all given, then where is it? We can ask... And ask... and Ask again. But to receive what is being given, one has to stop asking and allow the answer that is being given to then enjoy the answer. Or the vibration of God Source. This receiving of the answers that are being given is called allowing/receiving. A vibrational alignment with God Source. The better you feel the more you are allowing/receiving and the worse you feel, the less, or the more you are resisting or asking.

I call it defining. Asking is defining. And enjoying is allowing/receiving/realising what has already been defined. Because asking is also often for humans unconscious.

Now we are still speaking about duality. To experience less duality, less relativity between self and Source, one needs to close the vibrational gap, or split energy. This is not done by remaining neutral. Which is not asking and neither receiving/allowing. The closing of the vibrational gap or relativity between self and Source is done by vibrationally aligning with the never ending stream of well-being that flows from Source. Which knows everything you want. And when you focus on things that causes you to feel emotionally better, you are closing that gap. Personally. To ever less split energy. And evermore unified energy. Which is less dualistic. Less split energy. More unified and more holistic. More in support of all. Including self. More in benefit of all.

This is the eternal process of evermore becoming. Is there an evermore non dual thing? What people call God Source. Is evermore ever expanding pure positive energy. It is that of which you are an extension of. You can become evermore like God Source. Or ever less. Depending on your focus and how it feels emotionally better or worse. But you cannot seperate from God Source. And this inseperability is what allows for ever expansion and is what makes it all infinite. You cannot suffer enough to cause a disconnection. But you can suffer evermore to experience more disconnection. Evermore. But that is always still relative to God Source.

So wether you suffer or rejoice. It's still all one. Cannot seperate from the Unconditional Love that you are. That is why suffering is just indication of resistance. And this is all very dynamic. Without unconditional love, there is no ability for the awareness to focus unto/into any becoming. So to return back to the awareness is a way to return back to unconditional love of Source. Just like meditating. But to really experience it fully, one has to allow that. Without the allowing, it wont expand into more experience of its evermore being and becoming evermore here and now.

In either case, the "true" self is infinite and limitless and beyond definition. You could say it is meaningless. And you could investigate its meaninglessness further and discover that you always receive the moreness of the meaning that you give it. And you could thus call that meaninglessness, meaningful and purposeful. As you realise your own creatorship in it. Or you could even accept its meaninglessness. Embrace it fully. And say that nothing really exists... And you would still return back to the Source. From which all meanings arise.

And I find that Source simply creates vibrationally. Because in nothing, awareness of nothing, there is an ability, limitless and infinite and unbound, to become more aware of the awareness, by vibrating it, or extending itself into itself, vibrationally, for the creation of moreness/variety or experience of something as opposed to nothing. Giving meaning unto nothing, and experiencing the ever moreness of the meaning given unto it. And the reason it is dualistic is because it is vibrational. And that is also how the meanings are given and received/expanded upon.

And so the "truth" can be known evermore as infinity eternally evermore realised. And also returning back to Source. But Source is always there in both cases. But in "truth" and its infinity, we can always experience duality, because it is all vibrational, of one infinite awareness. Of one infinite being. That can become evermore and more. in realisation. But if one wants to realise ALL of it... It's simply not possible... You can realise it Evermoooore. Or even ever less... in either case its all infinite.

So true self is infinite. This realisation that duality is all there is makes people sometimes afraid. But in that fear they are infact asking... for more... But because they are soooo CAUGHT UP in their asking, they dont realise or sometimes cannot even find a way to realise exactly what it is they are asking for. Things like asking for relief. Or freedom from duality. Or escape. And the more they suffer, the more they want relief and the more they will realise it. And so at some point one surrenders to duality and embraces it and find out that they are the one who can control the duality. They can choose less duality. Or less suffering. And more relief. To vibrationally water the awareness of suffering with relief so to speak. Because the suffering is relative. So the ultimate quest becomes to transcend it evermore. And that part of us that transcends all duality has always been there. It is the awareness itself that does this naturally. Without trying. So when trying is let go off, suffering is too let go of. Does not mean we are literally free from duality, as it still always exists and will. We are just free from suffering it. Because we realise we are the source of duality and we can create any duality we want. We are the awareness that becomes aware of things and we can choose what to become more aware of, even more aware of nothing. And we can even choose how to become aware of it. Through resistant definitions of suffering or allowing definitions of less suffering and more ease and flow. This awareness and its qualities of allowance or resistance that it becomes more aware of, is what the awareness becomes by becoming more aware of it by simply choosing to become aware of it. So the more we allow, the more freedom/choice we have and the more we resist, the less freedom/choice we have, as this awareness. As resistance causes this awareness to create discord within itself. Which means the awareness is still there, but more scattered. Untill that resistance is released. Also in the awareness.

This is very simplified, thanks to duality. Thanks to realising that awareness is vibrational and expands into its awared of vibration. Everything is vibrational and every thing that is become aware of causes the awareness to begin to vibrate more like it. But you dont have to get lost in that, if you can always become aware of the awareness and realise the vibrational quality of your awareness in the core/source duality of it, being more resistant to itself or less... The result is this awareness expands into vibrations that feel worse emotionally or better. And the result of that will also be extended further in expansion, into manifestations which are in likeness to that vibration and that emotion thus.

So if something feels boring the results will keep becoming more and more boring. If the awareness continues in that direction. But to blame the physical manifestational conditions, of the boredom, is missing the point. The awareness had to first focus on that vibration that is boring. Which then became manifestations and then the awareness realised that they can Blame manifestations and turned into vibrations or blame which then can become manifestations of blame. That is why the conditions are not real in a sense. They are just excuses for the awareness to vibrate further. You can use any awareness to vibrate further. And often when we experience very negative awareness, we dont got acces to positive awareness. But we do got acces to less negative awareness. Such as meditation for example. Or no thought. Or nothingness. Or simple things or neutral things that dont expand into much thought. When the awareness is stable in neutrality. And has acces to it, one can have more choice between positive and negative. One can lean more in the direction they prefer. If that is allowed. Because the more the awareness focuses on positive often resistance pops up. As energies expand. So the awareness prefers to just be aware. As it is more close to peacefulness. As vibrating in too much allowance can sometimes cause a tiny tendency to resist to become that much more painful. When the awareness is in high speed, and movement, resistance can become more impactful. So remaining neutral as just the observer and non identification is more peaceful. Causes less expansion of the awareness.

Because identifying with something is like choosing to become aware of it. And if that awareness is "solid" or stable, it means the awareness will keep becoming more aware of it. Ongoingly. Untill it is let go of.

People who meditate to the extreme are actually attempting to let go of life before they are done living it. But often in that, one finds either big desires that are allowed to be realised and give the awareness a reason to continue life again. Or not... And then they continue to meditate... And they find even bigger desires... And it keeps getting bigger and bigger all the way to the unresistable, which comes in the realm of God or even archeangels. Like those transcendant experiences of extreme high frequencies. But they are always all still dualistic. But just beyoooond BEYOND the usual realm of duality.

Can one really go beyond the realm of duality/awareness? Transcendant awareness is beyond the usual awareness. And often no matter how high one wants to go, one cannot really find an awareness that is not part and parcel of this life in atleast some way shape or form. Or even lower awareness. Like elemental awareness. Of the elements. Both can enhance the value and meaning of the living human. But to really go beyond this life usually involves death. But even in that, this life is not excluded from all of that. It is just an expansion of it and from it and as it even.

Its all infinite and eternal really. The awareness will always be us. And it is infinite and eternal. Evermore being and evermore becoming.
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  #70  
Old 03-05-2022, 07:07 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
Can one really go beyond the realm of duality/awareness?
In my experience it has been in forays. Here are some lines from Frost at
Midnight, a poem by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. In which he says,

Of that eternal language, which thy God
Utters, who from eternity doth teach
Himself in all, and all things in himself.
Great universal Teacher! he shall mould
Thy spirit, and by giving make it ask.

" and by giving make it ask ." So the awakening to a supreme love
is a toing and froing. Like a wave unto the shore. The ego then is as Greenslade pointed out is a perceptual thing which many claim limits.
it is the usher on the door, if you will, of an old cinema who stops one seeing the divine show. The ego is not happy with aiding survival which is natural enough
but wants to involve itself in a trillion pound, dollar, euro arms industry yeah right !!!!!! ..Some thoughts this morning thanks.

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