How do you navigate the path that leads to liberation?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I'd agree with all of that. All religions or philosophies potentially point to the same experiences, the same universal truths or actualities. It's like different gift wrappings, for the same gifts inside.

For me, I am careful in what I associate with as far as defining or describing "it" as then I have changed it haven't I? I am associating with ideas as a part of it which is wholly optional. "It" or "this" or "now" doesn't necessarily have to include some mental ideas about it, some descriptions, some labels, some repetitive conceptual associations with the past or memory.

To look to the past, last month, last week, an hour ago, a second ago, is to include an idea about now in the now, which is not a "zen" way to be or live. But then neither is to add an idea about an idea.... as I have just done! To be here now with the understanding ALL mental fabrications are delusional in some way as now is brand new, clean, pure, as it is.... then we choose what of now is manifested as perception and experience... and mental content is always readily available as content as we are merged with this body and it's mind so it's as simple and focusing on it as it arises.

We then describe and experience it as existing, as real, as our perception as that is where our attention is, but then our attention can be elsewhere, our relationship with our mental content can be different, to prefer one to the other can also be a continuation of the association with the conceptual or mental. Now is perfect as it is with no effort needed in us to bring it into being. It's not something we need to do to reside in. We are already residing there. It's simply our attention has been caught by something else, and so that is what we perceive and experience.

I don't think it's Buddhist in particular to have a notion of virtue and try to live by it, and to me it's obvious that living by truth is a surer and happier path that living on dishonesty, and I believe it is good to deliberately cultivate virtues such as truthfulness, kindness, but if the heart is not in it, then best not pretend with 'fake kindness'. Hence the virtue is not derived directly through acting out 'as we know we should'. It's a deeper heartfelt expression which we can term 'metta', for if metta is heartfelt, you are bound to be kind, honest and so forth. However, is it really true for each of us individuals that heart is mettaful? I don't know about you, but I often have unkind attitudes towards people, sometimes outright malice, and that's the difference between me pretending to be buddhist-like on a forum and truth of how I know myself to be, but then again everyone has malice when they get annoyed, in the busy traffic, when stuff doesn't go their way, and it's really important to be aware of what your doing. Not to judge it against and imagined ideal Buddhist, but understand it within oneself as the truth, as a stone cold fact, 'this is what I tend to do'.

It would be great if we could just choose, but I have found with myself and with others I worked with when I was in social services, that people can't change themselves deliberately. An addict wants to quit but literally can't, an abuser wants to stop hurting people but temper is out of control. They know their tendencies hurt themselves and harm others, and they know they would be better to change, but they don't, so obviously there are underlying factors, and the enablement of personal transformation is far more nuanced than 'a choice'. 'It's a choice' obviously untrue. Great ideally, but not functional in practice.

The truth is the anger, abuse, malice and so on. People try to change it because they don't like it. They hate that about themselves and can't simple see it as the truth, and it's not that I'm any different. I speak from experience on this, but I can be aware of what I do, how I generate my own misery, and honestly, it's not about doing something about it; it's the truth, 'this is how it is,' which is transformational.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

By "being" there you mean identifying with. And we can always change what we are identifying with. That means we never actually "are" what we are identifying with. It is a temporary thing we are projecting and experiencing.

Yes I think they know everything is ' Temporary '...

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

That makes sense.

Even a Buddhist happy being a Buddhist doesn’t mean his every act is alligned to being that.

His process will show it’s just a guide to know deeper truths that are as you say, ‘ identified with’ something he or she uses as the means to acquaint themselves with themselves as that ever changing view reveals.

I would suggest not acting to any exrternalised expectation, or any expectation oneself has rendered in their own mind. How is one supposed to understand things if they are so simple as to behave 'as they should'?


To understand the things is to see it and realise the implications. Fir example if I get stressed and start to lose the plot, the consequence is I make silly mistakes and mess up things which could be important. I can also see how such reactive mental states rob me of peace and happiness and cause me to suffer, and hence realise the utter futility of doing that. Because I realise it's ridiculous, I learn it, but not always express it as wisdom through living by it, because I can be distracted and lose consciousness of what exactly I'm doing. That too, because I start to be less distracted since I know how distraction is related to the futile tendencies that generate unhappiness, and all this is learned 'in-self' without any other thing I should try to emulate.

[Phaelyn]

double post

[Phaelyn]

There is what I want to be, what I am, then the path is about learning why. Understanding. Then when we begin to understand, we become aware, more or less, of what our predicament is, being merged with this animal body and mind. And being in this world and culture where everyone "naturally" identifies with this form, this body, this bodies mind.

So then right now, in this current moment, I am aware my experience is this form. Right now we are experiencing inner and outer content. What do we see, feel, hear, smell, taste, think? Right now? This is all data from this animal body and it's brain.

So that's it in a nutshell. Being in a heightened state of awareness in the now. In this now, being alert or "awake" and knowing all of this content is not me. Every conclusion, interpretation, thought, idea, reaction, is from, and of, this body.

So then what? If one finds any substance to questions like these, one has not realized the above fully. We are still attached to some idea as me. Every single question is from this body, this form, this body and forms mind. It is a story, lines being read to us from an announcer. All of it. Even the spiritual stuff.

Even what this all leads to become a part of the "story" being presented to us by this form.

But then I will add this. This is what sages, like jesus or Buddha, or whoever we look up to or connect with, were talking about, what they found or connected with to the best of their ability from moment to moment.

When we know or are aware of, we are not our content, the effects of the content disappear.

I'd also say, this form, this body and brain, "works" to keep us identified with it's content. It is in the design of it. We are designed to form an ego and work through it. To identify with it.

My opinion as to "why" we are in this predicament, on this planet in this body is pretty simple. It's a simple exercise. To rise above all of this, to no longer "suffer" within it, to no longer create conflict or experience conflict, requires more awareness. So that's the purpose. The source of us, that we are part and parcel of, as the Bhagavad-Gita states, creates us, then our task is to grow in awareness. What better way to induce that than to take this conscious energy and merge it with lower forms of energy and say, there, find yourself in that. We identify with these lower energies, all this junk from these animal bodies designed to fight and look out for number one, to seek pleasure and dominance and on and on....and find our way "home." To reside in what we are, not in what we are being fed as internal and external data.

I am in this body temporarily. I am with this mind, these thoughts, temporarily. My only task is to be awake. To know I am here, and everyone else as well, and we are all the same. Conscious energy that is identifying more or less with our form and our minds. The more we wake up and become aware of our predicament, the less we identify with it, the more of our 'true nature" or form is expressed and experienced.

If we are not identified with our mental content, what do we become? Less in someway?, no we become more. More aware, more understanding, and more of what we are. The mental reactions can come, the interpretations, thoughts of a certain type, but we know them to not be of us or from us. So they produce no effect. They do not disturb our inner or outer peace.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

There is what I want to be, what I am, then the path is about learning why. Understanding. Then when we begin to understand, we become aware, more or less, of what our predicament is, being merged with this animal body and mind. And being in this world and culture where everyone "naturally" identifies with this form, this body, this bodies mind.

So then right now, in this current moment, I am aware my experience is this form. Right now we are experiencing inner and outer content. What do we see, feel, hear, smell, taste, think? Right now? This is all data from this animal body and it's brain.

And even before the conscious thought that it is me or not me, it is as it is.

So that's it in a nutshell. Being in a heightened state of awareness in the now. In this now, being alert or "awake" and knowing all of this content is not me. Every conclusion, interpretation, thought, idea, reaction, is from, and of, this body.

Yes just being aware that it is this way.

So then what? If one finds any substance to questions like these, one has not realized the above fully. We are still attached to some idea as me. Every single question is from this body, this form, this body and forms mind. It is a story, lines being read to us from an announcer. All of it. Even the spiritual stuff.

Yes, there is always some identification going on with the psychological reactivity, and I am the leading character in that story.

Even what this all leads to become a part of the "story" being presented to us by this form.

But then I will add this. This is what sages, like jesus or Buddha, or whoever we look up to or connect with, were talking about, what they found or connected with to the best of their ability from moment to moment.

When we know or are aware of, we are not our content, the effects of the content disappear.

I'd also say, this form, this body and brain, "works" to keep us identified with it's content. It is in the design of it. We are designed to form an ego and work through it. To identify with it.

I find the ego is there, and through distraction it takes the position of 'me', but with conscious awareness it can't assume that position. It seems to have a life of its own, and it is always trying to maintain a state of constant distraction.

My opinion as to "why" we are in this predicament, on this planet in this body is pretty simple. It's a simple exercise. To rise above all of this, to no longer "suffer" within it, to no longer create conflict or experience conflict, requires more awareness. So that's the purpose. The source of us, that we are part and parcel of, as the Bhagavad-Gita states, creates us, then our task is to grow in awareness. What better way to induce that than to take this conscious energy and merge it with lower forms of energy and say, there, find yourself in that. We identify with these lower energies, all this junk from these animal bodies designed to fight and look out for number one, to seek pleasure and dominance and on and on....and find our way "home." To reside in what we are, not in what we are being fed as internal and external data.

I am in this body temporarily. I am with this mind, these thoughts, temporarily. My only task is to be awake. To know I am here, and everyone else as well, and we are all the same. Conscious energy that is identifying more or less with our form and our minds. The more we wake up and become aware of our predicament, the less we identify with it, the more of our 'true nature" or form is expressed and experienced.

If we are not identified with our mental content, what do we become? Less in someway?, no we become more. More aware, more understanding, and more of what we are. The mental reactions can come, the interpretations, thoughts of a certain type, but we know them to not be of us or from us. So they produce no effect. They do not disturb our inner or outer peace.

It is the aim to walk the path of mindful equanimity, so it's a constant practice of continual self awareness so you know just what you do. Many say we have to change it, but that incitement of will is an urge perpetuated by adverse reactivity, and it not that we have to change ourselves from what we are now, but to cease that incitement to do so. Then we can just be aware, not because we have to do that, but because it is true that we are. Should such incitements arise, then one is aware 'this is incitement arising, this is incitement passing away', and thus the constant state of incitement wanes, becomes less frequent, and becomes rare.

[Phaelyn]

A funny thing is at some point we realize "it" or living the path has zero to do with religion, or spirituality, or teachings, or teachers. These things point to it like a map, but once we see where the map is pointing, have an idea of where it is exactly on the horizon... the maps are pointless for us. Then not only are they pointless, they can be a hindrance.

The entire thing is in front of us at all times. It is our very own lives, nothing outside of them or us.

One can see one's entire content, from the senses, from the mind, is not us...but then to also see ideas about this reality are also not us....

Krishnamurti said, observe the observer...

It goes a step further than to observe yourself...because that observer can also be observed...

Mooji uses the two birds metaphor.....one bird on a tree branch and chattering away... above that bird is one on a higher branch, that can just observe all the chattering and realize it is not me...

but then Mooji goes a step further and says, even this bird, the higher one, can be observed.

The point is ALL bodily content is not us, turns out we are "known" or shown by what we do. Are we showing ourselves or something else? Live non-verbally, non mentally-interpretative, instead experiencingly interpretative. I like the Taoist way to explain it...

Sometimes I sit and think
sometimes I just sit

I do less and less until I do nothing at all
then nothing is left undone

See if something else needs to be done.... the second bird becomes the first...
One is identifying with mental conceptual activity.

Buddha's PARABLE OF THE RAFT

Imagine a person in the course of a journey who arrives at a great expanse of water, whose near bank is dangerous and whose far bank offers safety. But there is no ferryboat or bridge to take them across the water. So they collect grass, twigs, branches and leaves and binds them together as a raft and by paddling with hands and feet succeeds in getting across.

On arriving at the far bank, they think, "This raft has been very helpful. What if I were to hoist it on my head or shoulders, then proceed on my journey?"

Now, what do you think? By carrying it with them, would that person be doing what should be done with a raft?’

“’No, sir,’ replied his audience.

So what should the person do with the raft? Having arrived at the far bank, they should leave it then continue on their journey.

My teachings too are like a raft. They serve the purpose of crossing over but not the purpose of continuing on, of living them, actualizing them, To carry them creates grasping.

When you understand that the dharma is like a raft, and that you should let go even of positive things (dhamma), then how much more so should you let go of negative things (adhamma).

The Taoist or Zen way....

It's not a hard path or difficult. No effort is needed. No expenditure of energy. Nothing needs to be done, except to stop doing. If one is hitting a nail with a hammer, what must they do to stop the hammer from moving? Nothing at all. Let it be as it is.

Originally Posted by Gem

it is as it is

[BlueElephant]

Find a genuine Realized (who has attained the spiritual realization ie Liberation, Enlightenment) Spiritual Friend and live, study and do deep practice with them for as many years as possible.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

Find a genuine Realized (who has attained the spiritual realization ie Liberation, Enlightenment) Spiritual Friend and live, study and do deep practice with them for as many years as possible.

Sound advice!

Welcome to the forum.

[Phaelyn]

genuine Realized who has attained the spiritual realization ie Liberation, Enlightenment

I've met a few of those self described types and so far all have had massive ego's and used and abused other people in sometimes horrible ways. But I'm open minded and so maybe such a person exists that is not selfish, self-centered, and a narcissist. I'd love to know such a person.

I lived in a guru's commune once, he claimed to be all the above, and he hated children. Said they were a nuisance and did not allow them anywhere near him. A lot of kids who grew up there have mental issues as their parents neglected them a lot, as the parents were required to go be with the guru whenever he asked. Most of the parents there put their meditation practices and their own "path to enlightenment" before their children's needs.

It's kind of funny because selflessness is required to be a good parent. As the children's needs are put before the parents. Ideally anyway. Not all parents are good, but really having a child can really end a lot of selfishness and let one grow in spirituality. But yea in that commune they thought their meditation and such, selfish pursuits would lead to "enlightenment."