D-wave quantum computers are legit.

[Armadodecadron]

An alternative and much less exciting take on the hypothetical effect of consciousness that might be said to have been demonstrated in double slit experiments, when applied to computing:

Computers that suffer subtle and debilitating corruption from the hypothetical quantum interference from consciousness. If our thoughts are actually droplets in the quantum pond, as it were, wouldn't those omnipresent ripples distort any image reflecting on those waters?

Then again, if perception was changing the result - experiential consciousness in any human form, then protecting the devices would require us to never perceive their processes directly. Does sight even qualify as direct perception? Do we ever truly know the absolute reality of a thing by our senses alone, and is that required to change quantum forces and macroscopic levels?

There's an awful lot of questions, here, and I don't really see any of them leading to the magic reality machine in the near future. Just more twists in the labyrinth. Great material for science fiction, though.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by organic born

I completely understand what you are saying since these are the very thoughts that entertained my own thinking for may years. But herein is the paradox. As we consciously attempt to incorporate "meaning" into all that we are, and all that we do, we are stuck with applying our impressions of what this meaning may look like based on the impressions that continue to stay with us, we become trapped within the general impressions that we consciously attempt to build on.

Even using the word spirituality narrows our focus into pre-programmed assumptions.
The word "spirit" is loaded with conditioned impressions, and when we attempt to "center" we're directing our attention into areas that we assume is where this "centering" lies.

As long as we are building upon this dream of where we're thinking we should-be-heading then we maintain our attention within a repetitive loop.

So if we are dedicating ourselves to spirituality, then we are perceptually trapped within the loop that began as we set-out on this journey, along with all the unconscious trappings of what we think this means.

In order to be spiritual we need to stop trying to be spiritual.
In order to grow we need to stop trying to grow.
In order to become enlightened we need to let go of this need/desire to become enlightened.

We need to let-go and just trust.

I started doing just this some years ago and holy cow what a trip. Things started coming to me naturally. I could care less about "meaning" "enlightenment" "spirituality" in the manor that I'm actively seeking such. I've been actively dissolving such attachments and remain open to spontaneous occurrences and insights in the unique forms as they clearly present themselves naturally.

I am not attempting to form a spiritual picture any longer, which has happily freed-up my focus for that which honestly emerges in very visceral ways.

As long as we're ~"trying"~ we are actively blocking that which we seek.

Now don't think for a moment that "letting go" of spiritual pursuits stops the train! Your desire to "know" will not go away.. if anything it'll become amplified. Only now you'll be looking in places that hadn't occurred to you before... and you won't be picking these new forms of exposure, they'll come to you naturally over time, and in the most interesting of ways. You open the door for such exposure by simply becoming receptive.

Don't attempt to build models, just absorb and let go.

You will be needing to keep the door open for what's coming next.. :)

Organic, thanks for your thoughts.
Just a few comments...

First, in my understanding, all deeper truths are paradoxical, and there's absolutely no contradiction between being present in the moment and bringing awareness and conscious choice to each moment.

So I'm guessing you probably don't completely understand my perspective, and vice versa, but that's ok with me.

Secondly, if we are living a fully engaged life, it will present us with choices in every moment. Some may be or become habitual and thus almost reflexive, but they are most often the devoted work of a lifetime and do not happen by accident. The toppings on your delivery pizza didn't even happen by accident...you had to take a decision, LOL.

If you happen to choose in alignment with spirit and the higher good easily with some things in life, seemingly without thought or effort, it will not be so for every thing, for every situation, or with every person. Everyone faces deep and deeply personal challenges on his or her journey.

Remember the pizza parable When it becomes habitual, even reflexive to choose wisely regarding those pizza toppings, I would caution anyone about resting on their laurels. If we are deeply and authentically engaged in life and are fully present, it's then we can begin to perceive that the simple wonders and richness and sanctity of everyday existence equally encompass both our greatest opportunities and also our greatest challenges. As well as the joy without which the universe could not exist.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[organic born]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

First, in my understanding, all deeper truths are paradoxical, and there's absolutely no contradiction between being present in the moment and bringing awareness and conscious choice to each moment.

The contradiction is built into the manor in which our choices are made. Our choices will always be conditioned responses. These will be a result of a layering of impressions and developing conclusions based on ones personal experience in relation to a cultures predispositions.

A tribal member in the Amazon (read "Don't Sleep, There are Snakes" by Daniel L. Everett, an absolutely amazing book) would have a far different take on the same situation than you would likely formulate based on your previous exposures. Each of our views are highly prejudiced by our limited exposures and therefore contextually suspect.

And this is over something as basic as physically tactile exposures. When we start making pronouncements either publicly or internally about more ambiguous subject such as morals or spiritual-centric impressions we are on thinner grounds yet.

Since our first moment of conscious participation as a child we start defining a place for ourselves. We tend to build on such impressions within a closed formatted environment of continuous exposures. The key word here is "build". We may change opinions along the way but rarely do we functionally "reformat" our perceptional connection in relation to this current life-time experience.

In the old texts such reformatting would be termed "born again", but the term itself has been so misused that it's essentially worthless.

And yet, such reformatting is necessary if we're expecting to break the patterning of learned behaviors and beliefs. Such reformatting is not something that we can do consciously. We can not decide what it is that we should be rebooting into. Any attempt to do so will only result in more of the same.

We have to let go. And become watchful and responsive to what forms before us.

Any opinions that we form need to be held lightly and let go of easily. New "structural" information that emerges will be unpredictable.. because it's "new".

Learning in this way will always be fresh because it's not accumulative. Enlightenment is an "awakening".. it's not a process of "validating" our earlier assumptions or an attempt to build on such previous assumptions.

For each individual the path would be different because we're each coming from a differing past.. so what we need to unlearn and then re-calibrate will be customized accordingly. So my path out of this complexity-of-impressions would not be your path, and vise versa. I can say that I'm not the same person that I was just a year ago. It's not that my "beliefs" have changed, it's more that my experience is far more streamlined and wakefully present.

And I'm not applying any particular practice or discipline. I just am, and things are moving along naturally. I now know much more of how things are organized and specifically made and wouldn't get near a piece of pizza regardless of toppings. What a toxic soup such things are!

I'm writing this in an attempt to verbally clarify this process for "myself". If some of this can spill over into your own consciousness all the better.. but for me I'm so fascinated by this newer exploratory process that I'm wanting to engage it both consciously and intuitively. My sharing it with you like this puts pressure on me to better capture it's essence.

If you're not getting what I'm referring to I can't blame you one bit.. I've been invested in this process for many years now and yet only recently have the older trappings been falling way with the kinds of clarity that comes like a light breeze moving aside the clouds that have obscured a rather magnificent mountain! :)

[7luminaries]

Organic, I do agree with holding beliefs lightly. And of course to be present in each moment is to be open to the new possibilities. There is nothing in what you were saying that in any way contradicts anything I believe nor anything that I've been saying.

Once again, more broadly, there is nothing about the act of being present in each moment, nor of likewise being open to the possibilities in that moment, which contradicts in any way with what I am saying about taking conscious choices in every moment.

There is no core truth which does not hold within it contradiction and paradox. Simply because I am stating this truth, in no way means that I do not get what you are saying (lol) and I find that rather off-putting and obnoxious. It is an impediment to conversation.

You might instead first begin with the premise that if I'm having a conversation with you at this level, that I do understand, and perhaps likewise I'm attempting to discuss that there is no contradiction in the existence of paradox. Or, more likely, the seeming existence of paradox. The presence of paradox (as we understand things) is to be expected within all authentic and core truths.

Peace and blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think it's more to do with understanding epistmology and culture in the sense that knowledge is an organised way of describing and/or explaining human experience. Because knowledge by definition is 'taken to be true', one way culture can be understood is as a group that conforms to its (cultural) paradigms. This emerges as the dominant worldviews and social norms which are required to establish and maintain social order. The historical perspectives of reason have changed and the reasoning used by different cultures is different, so whereas the function of reasoning might be universal, the assumptions made vary and also change. This goes back to your point about values, as what is valued as whole by any culture will form the core of the inquiry it supports and the knowledge which it sanctions. Invariable we find that some individuals think differently, and because this is disruptive to the order, which is distressing for the more conformed majority, non conforming thinking (and feeling and behaving) idividuals are relegated to the 'constitutive outside'. I call it 'constitutive' firstly because the normalcy of any person is fundamentally defined by the comparitive abnormality of 'others', and also because this comparison exists internally within the psyche of normalised individuals as their definitive sense of self. I recently did an in depth analysis of Skillet's film clip 'Monster' which, perhaps by accident, but profoundly, lyrically expressed the singer's struggle to control his 'inner demon' while the video imagery represented the control of 'social monsters' through psychiatric and police institutions. The video used windows to position the observer against the observed, knower against the subject whom is known and the powerful against the disempowered. I think this was accidental and the makers of the video were not trying to express such a deep philosophical implication, but that only indicates how deeply ingrained the 'cultural norm' is. It's just unconsciously expressed in the way it was because one's psychological distress is understood, as reason, through the social symbols of the given culture. I uncovered several other modern music videos that used the same psychiatry/police symbolism, which really does indicate, through artistic representation, how heavily our reasoning, our way of understanding, is preconceived according to the cultural paradigms that we inhabit manifestly, and inhabit us psychologically. Hence, what we know (and the process by which we know) is integral, inseparable, from our social dimensions. Interesting video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mjlM_RnsVE

Well said, agreed. Everything discussed above about being present in each moment and taking conscious choices --as well as being open to possibilities in each moment -- are all constrained within the social context for the vast majority of us and for the vast majority of our lifetimes. And yet we cannot realistically hope to transcend these even momentarily without becoming more conscious, more aware in the moment, of the social framework itself. Clearly, certain choices, patterns, and lifestyles are more socially acceptable, whereas others are not. Cheese is acceptable pizza topping, however sugar and most fruits are not. And people would question you for your choices and look at you strangely. Perhaps they would even mock you or cast you out in some way if your choice is deeply offended their notion of how pizza should be.

The fact is that unconscious choices are nearly always socially acceptable defaults. This is what an unconscious choice represents... something that has already been defined as acceptable in the mainstream social paradigm. In the modern era, a reflexive, unconscious choice for immediate self-gratification or ongoing pursuit of self-interest is also an acceptable social choice. So an unconscious or reflexive choice to "go with the flow" and pursue your self-interest without consideration for others is also now a socially acceptable default.

The pizza parable is simply representative all of the myriad decisions that we take in our daily lives. It could have been getting dressed or taking a certain route to work, or deciding what we're going to have for lunch or where we will run our errands or whatever the case may be. How we will respond to people with whom we interact during the day. Any of the myriad moments that make up the ongoing thread of our daily lives and thus contribute to the tapestry of our entire existence. Any of these myriad moments in which we have the opportunity to more fully bring our awareness to that moment and thus to begin to make conscious choices that may better align with and resonate with who we are at centre.

Equally, they represent a degree of agency, partnership and co-creation, and of a growing toward maturity and ownership in our own lives. And this too is an equally important milestone. So to speak.

IMO this is why conscious awareness and conscious choice (such as it is and to the degree that we are able to bring these to the moment) represent such an important milestone and our individual and collective journeys.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Well said, agreed. Everything discussed above about being present in each moment and taking conscious choices --as well as being open to possibilities in each moment -- are all constrained within the social context for the vast majority of us and for the vast majority of our lifetimes. And yet we cannot realistically hope to transcend these even momentarily without becoming more conscious, more aware in the moment, of the social framework itself. Clearly, certain choices, patterns, and lifestyles are more socially acceptable, whereas others are not. Cheese is acceptable pizza topping, however sugar and most fruits are not. And people would question you for your choices and look at you strangely. Perhaps they would even mock you or cast you out in some way if your choice is deeply offended their notion of how pizza should be.

The fact is that unconscious choices are nearly always socially acceptable defaults. This is what an unconscious choice represents... something that has already been defined as acceptable in the mainstream social paradigm. In the modern era, a reflexive, unconscious choice for immediate self-gratification or ongoing pursuit of self-interest is also an acceptable social choice. So an unconscious or reflexive choice to "go with the flow" and pursue your self-interest without consideration for others is also now a socially acceptable default.

The pizza parable is simply representative all of the myriad decisions that we take in our daily lives. It could have been getting dressed or taking a certain route to work, or deciding what we're going to have for lunch or where we will run our errands or whatever the case may be. How we will respond to people with whom we interact during the day. Any of the myriad moments that make up the ongoing thread of our daily lives and thus contribute to the tapestry of our entire existence. Any of these myriad moments in which we have the opportunity to more fully bring our awareness to that moment and thus to begin to make conscious choices that may better align with and resonate with who we are at centre.

Equally, they represent a degree of agency, partnership and co-creation, and of a growing toward maturity and ownership in our own lives. And this too is an equally important milestone. So to speak.

IMO this is why conscious awareness and conscious choice (such as it is and to the degree that we are able to bring these to the moment) represent such an important milestone and our individual and collective journeys.

Peace & blessings,
7L

Personally I am not so big on choice because some folks have more options available to then than others do, and the promotion of 'choice' as ideal only advantages the socially privileged. It does not help the disadvantaged. My framework is empowerment, which essentially means increasing the options available to people who are disempowered and disadvantaged in society. People simply do not have the same oportunties, so choice as a principle is not equitable. People value choice, and give it all importance, because choice is the last bastion of the ego. The basic structure of the story is God gave people 'free will', and we get to choose to go our own way, which is degenerate from God's way. In this way, choice was always coerced by moral underpinnings and never had anything to do with 'freedom'. I sum up the capitalist paradigm with a slogan: Give them choices and tell them they are free. I'm pretty sure that the powers that be understand this and continue to promote choice for reasons of social control, and the construct of social systems that support their privilege and wealth, while The livelihood of minorities and working classes becomes increasing precarious.

My suggestion is quite different, and instead of 'give then choices and tell them they are free' mentality, I'd propose the whole story of free will was bogus from the very beginning, and individuals, that is the bodies with which we identify, are entwined with the universe and powerless in the scale of things. We just experience the lifepath which is laid out as we identify with the body that lives and dies. The difference is a perspective of a conscious universe in which the actions currently considered to be chosen are actually inspired spontaneously within a universal consciousness rather than by an individual who has free will. For any person this would be experienced much like a flow with the moment of life, and actions would arise directly from the insight where one doesn't really know what they do or why, but they know just what to do, and do it whole-heartedly. It is done because life requires it and moves you; not because 'I want it'. It's working in immediacy of what needs to be done, without pause and hesitation of making choices. This holds fundamental values that treasure life as a whole, and the whole movement of life. It does not require human craving to create demand for utterly useless rubbish, it doesn't require mindless competition and it doesn't require the perpetual distraction, sense of lack and consumer fulfillment. It doesn't appeal to the baser human aspects which capitalism relies on.

The whiz bang computers are great. I like 'em. But there is very little truly ethical dialogue surrounding it, and they will be utilised to further capital concerns and values, which are obviously not conducive with life on Earth as a whole.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Gem

My suggestion is quite different, and instead of 'give then choices and tell them they are free' mentality, I'd propose the whole story of free will was bogus from the very beginning, and individuals, that is the bodies with which we identify, are entwined with the universe and powerless in the scale of things. We just experience the lifepath which is laid out as we identify with the body that lives and dies. The difference is a perspective of a conscious universe in which the actions currently considered to be chosen are actually inspired spontaneously within a universal consciousness rather than by an individual who has free will. For any person this would be experienced much like a flow with the moment of life, and actions would arise directly from the insight where one doesn't really know what they do or why, but they know just what to do, and do it whole-heartedly. It is done because life requires it and moves you; not because 'I want it'. It's working in immediacy of what needs to be done, without pause and hesitation of making choices. This holds fundamental values that treasure life as a whole, and the whole movement of life. It does not require human craving to create demand for utterly useless rubbish, it doesn't require mindless competition and it doesn't require the perpetual distraction, sense of lack and consumer fulfillment. It doesn't appeal to the baser human aspects which capitalism relies on.

Snap! This is it exactly!! Within our evolution, as an evolving species, we were needing to respond directly to our environment in a do-or-die way.
We did not evolve in a make-believe world, in relation to thinking the big-thoughts or designing designer-worlds,
where our mental-imagination was the designer of all thinking.

We awoke each morning and dealt with the present. We did so in small groups so our interactions were cohesive and overlapping in the most visceral of ways. We moved around as a species so our hardware was light and intrinsically functional.

Now what we have is purely artificial and without depth. We purchase for the sake of purchasing and we dream without the functional repercussions that at one time accompanied poor planing and execution.

As per one researcher that I read, it wasn't long ago that the average couch potato of today wouldn't have survived very long, considering their inability to navigate and engage with physicality directly.

We are currently on a precipice as a species, because we think that our thoughts are the key to integrity. We are being spoon fed by a division of labor and are vulnerable to commercial flights of fancy. In the meantime our planet is groaning and teetering in the face of our dreamy-like ignorance.

Our foods are fake, and our goals are superficially tied to the fancy of an ever shifting culture of ambivalent consumerism. We take medicines that our bodies can't use and don't need, while seeking treatment for self-created aliments.

We can't grow our own food or know where to look for it without attending the chapel of the enabling grocery store. Literally most people could no longer cook to save their lives.

We have this "appearance" of freedom of choice, and with that we chose to eat candied foods at the expense of our sound phyical health. Our "friends" are the folks on TV.. we snapchat and text the acquaintances that we know locally. We barely know how to form true bonds anymore.

And think about "spirituality" as it's currently being sold. Can one get anymore narcissistic than this? The clarion call is to "advance" as an individual to the point where we're no longer "present" in a viable and physical way! It's all about getting "over there", and we're lacking as individuals as long as we remain focused on "right here".

We are seriously nothing unless we are connectively awake and physically functional. And right now, both commercially and spiritually we have strayed off the tracks of such functionality. We are using our free choice, in such a way, that will eventually dream our distracted selves off of this planet.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by organic born

Snap! This is it exactly!! Within our evolution, as an evolving species, we were needing to respond directly to our environment in a do-or-die way.
We did not evolve in a make-believe world, in relation to thinking the big-thoughts or designing designer-worlds,
where our mental-imagination was the designer of all thinking.

We awoke each morning and dealt with the present. We did so in small groups so our interactions were cohesive and overlapping in the most visceral of ways. We moved around as a species so our hardware was light and intrinsically functional.

Now what we have is purely artificial and without depth. We purchase for the sake of purchasing and we dream without the functional repercussions that at one time accompanied poor planing and execution.

As per one researcher that I read, it wasn't long ago that the average couch potato of today wouldn't have survived very long, considering their inability to navigate and engage with physicality directly.

We are currently on a precipice as a species, because we think that our thoughts are the key to integrity. We are being spoon fed by a division of labor and are vulnerable to commercial flights of fancy. In the meantime our planet is groaning and teetering in the face of our dreamy-like ignorance.

Our foods are fake, and our goals are superficially tied to the fancy of an ever shifting culture of ambivalent consumerism. We take medicines that our bodies can't use and don't need, while seeking treatment for self-created aliments.

We can't grow our own food or know where to look for it without attending the chapel of the enabling grocery store. Literally most people could no longer cook to save their lives.

We have this "appearance" of freedom of choice, and with that we chose to eat candied foods at the expense of our sound phyical health. Our "friends" are the folks on TV.. we snapchat and text the acquaintances that we know locally. We barely know how to form true bonds anymore.

And think about "spirituality" as it's currently being sold. Can one get anymore narcissistic than this? The clarion call is to "advance" as an individual to the point where we're no longer "present" in a viable and physical way! It's all about getting "over there", and we're lacking as individuals as long as we remain focused on "right here".

We are seriously nothing unless we are connectively awake and physically functional. And right now, both commercially and spiritually we have strayed off the tracks of such functionality. We are using our free choice, in such a way, that will eventually dream our distracted selves off of this planet.

Organic, hello there...
I agree with all that you've said critiquing our society's toxic mainstream paradigm and pursuit of both dehumanising profit and dehumanising control as its modus operandi (MO). I think these are important points on a vital topic, one that is at the core of our material and physical existence today...and one which frankly and openly seeks to debase and dehumanise the communal, spiritual and ethical aspects of our modern social fabric.

I also think that, like absolutely anything else in existence, free will can be misused and co-opted, if we allow it. By default, it will tend to be co-opted within an oppressive or toxic social paradigm and then it falls to each of us to awaken and reclaim our awareness and perception in each moment.

It falls to each of us to realise that our free will and conscious choice is ultimately only ours and is never another's to have, own, use, or exploit. Our consciousness can be raised -- it is not only confined to the realm of mainstream societal paradigm or to rampant, unconscious consumerism and to mindless, bestial, unconscious living and being.

At that moment and potentially in every moment, we claim and reclaim our will as a conscious and free will, and it is on us to bring awareness and conscious choice to each moment, as best we are able.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[organic born]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

There is no core truth which does not hold within it contradiction and paradox. Simply because I am stating this truth, in no way means that I do not get what you are saying (lol) and I find that rather off-putting and obnoxious. It is an impediment to conversation.

In the Buddhist tradition if someone is getting under your skin then this is an opportunity to learn something about yourself. Am I challenging your feeling of inner integrity by not catering to your version of a truth in some way? You feel that you've "got it" and I'm questioning that by not playing along directly with your manor of interpretation.

I'm finding your expression of being irritated quite illuminating. It's suggests, by it's presence, that you're protecting something that would be best if you dispensed with. :)

[organic born]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

At that moment and potentially in every moment, we claim and reclaim our will as a conscious and free will, and it is on us to bring awareness and conscious choice to each moment, as best we are able.

And of course I agree.. my beef is that we're simply prone to talk about such things in a high-minded way but then do little to actually rectify our narrow focus as an image-driven and lost species. For myself I'm rebooting my experience based on the tactile needs of my physical body. I'm only eating foods that my ancestors were prone to eat, since those are what we evolved in relation to. I'm also going off the rails and am learning to grow my own nutrient dense versions in an attempt to help re-erect a dying art. I'm also taking serous the folks who surround me in such a way that "nothing else matters". The idea of some god, or of some version of the afterlife should hold my attention for more than a few moments is pretty much on the skids in my current experience.

We've been loosing something as a species and it's time we reclaim it. Talking about it only is the best way that I know-of to do nothing. :)