Insight meditation and the Satipatthana sutta

[blossomingtree]

Keeping track of Gem's pivots:

1. The Satipatthana sutra so philosophical and would require discussion of "wider teachings"

OLD

Originally Posted by Gem

I could also go into the satipatthana sutta itself, but that would be a philosophical based knowledge

Originally Posted by Gem

To talk abut the Satipatthana in a deeper way remaining with Buddhist contexts would require discussion of the wider teachings.

When pointed out:

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Sattipatthana sutta philosophical? To me it read as a training manual.

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

There is nothing philosophical in the Satiphatthana.

NEW

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes the satipatthana is the practical 'way to meditate'

Gem is now willing and able to talk about the Satiphatthana, which includes the main meditation teachings of the Buddha, and is now no longer philosophical to Gem.

2. Gem announces he is referring to the Satiphatthana Sutra, and that he actually meant the Maha-Satipatthana Sutra (which is actually exactly the same, except with the Four Noble Truths appended).

OLD

Originally Posted by Gem

I should have been more specific before, but when I say 'the satipatthana' I actually mean the Maha Satipatthana Sutta

When pointed out:

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

The Sutras are the same - except one is the longer version and has the Four Noble Truths included.

NEW

Originally Posted by Gem PIVOT

I think legend has it that Gotama made two different sermons, a longer one and a shorter one, and these are recorded in two different suttas.

Gem linked to a complex and extended commentary version which perhaps sought to justify how "philosophical" he thought it was

3. Gem assures us his certainty is correct arguing that the two sutras were delivered separately. When pointed out Thanissaro Bhikkhu and others say it is exactly the same except with the Four Noble Truths appended, this is conveniently overlooked.

OLD

Originally Posted by Gem

I'm pretty sure it is correct

(that the two sutras were spoken in two different sermons.

When pointed out: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...9&postcount=25

Originally Posted by Gem

I'm not sure. I don't know if anyone is sure.

When again pointed out the words are exactly the same, with Four Noble Truths appended to the Maha Sutra, Gem tries again:

Originally Posted by Gem

On p.16 the author refers to them saying 'where both discourses were spoken' https://www.scribd.com/document/1270...ealization-pdf

the detailed instructions found in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and the Sattipatthana Sutta apparently belong to a later period, when the Buddha's teaching had spread from the Ganges valley to the distant Kammasadhamma in the Kuru country, where both discourses were spoken.

Ignores evidence http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...9&postcount=25 and provides link to an ambiguous statement

Other pivots:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...5&postcount=98
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...#post1672 297
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...#post1675 948

BT

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Yes it is, although some.. Yuttadhamo bhikku for instance uses the term Mantra
Instead of taking a mantra and focus on the sound. The notes uses simple words that acknowledge the reality right now.



I agree. As I said I only do that sometimes.
Even though It does add activity to the mind it seems to help to solidify ,if you will, the framework The Satipatthana lays out in later meditations.
I do use the breath as a foundation. At least during the sitting part of meditation. I think what you call base samadhi I call acces concentration. And I do seem to wait for that state in meditation to create some sense of succes from it..

Noting as I do (As thought to me on retreat) I understand is used in most mahasi style derivatives of vipassana. It does seem to help me stay with the breath better than bare awareness. I dabbled with both for a few months before settling on this particular style..

Mind you the note idealy is very gentle and in the background of my awareness, at least that's the aim. When a certain degree of samadhi arises the noting sometimes drops completely. But so far not for very long periods of time yet. Thinks seconds instead of minutes.


With Love
Eelco

I have a perspective on this of course but don't wish to cause confusion, as I like to respect the teaching context/methodology of a school/system. And it can get confusing trying to reconcile different methods.

In the context of a casual conversation, very briefly, Vipassana and Samadhi work hand in hand together - strengthen one, you strengthen the other. That said, samadhi is important to provde a solid baseline for insight. Insight here is "seeing" of the dhammas, of the rising of dukkha, the abiding of dukkha, and the place of the unconditioned etc. It's not an intellectual type knowledge. Re: vipassana/samadhi - note that you can also have one without the other. i.e. some are accomplished in samadhi but do not investigate the dhammas, some have wisdom (insight) but samadhi is not sufficiently robust enough for the subtlest senses of ego. FWIW I don't believe in actively canvassing too much or mentally notating too much. If you do anapanasati that apparently simple technique can be very powerful. Once base samadhi is achieved, you will be able to move much more intuitively through the Satipathhana and all of the Buddha's teachings, and recognize the many entryways into realization. I wouldn't focus too heavily at this point on the discourses as a day to day guide for where you are, in my opinion, there is a lot packed into the Sutra - which means it can be overwhelming and confusing to try to put it all in practice. Start simple. Anapanasati, later and naturally investigate the dhammas. Simple can bring you home. My 2c.

BT

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I have a perspective on this of course but don't wish to cause confusion, as I like to respect the teaching context/methodology of a school/system. And it can get confusing trying to reconcile different methods.

BT

I'm ok with some confusion. That is to say.
I've done a mahasi style retreat (Ajahn Tong Sirimangalo derivative) almost 4 years ago.
A year after I read Daniel Ingrams mastering the core teachings of the buddha. For a while after that i've been reading up on both samatha and vipassana. Tried both for a while, but found that that was confusing. After reading right concentration by Leigh Brasington, Practicing the Jhanas by tina rasmussen and Stephen Snyder and meditating for a while with the help of Thannisaro Bhikku's description of breath meditation. I decided to stick with the dry insight vipassana style I learned at retreat.

The main reason for doing this is that as a layperson, with 6 children, a full time job and some pets the time and dedication required to actually rise beyond base samadhi or acces concentration seems near impossible at the moment.

In time I found that the vipassana style I do practice brings me to acces concentration quick enough for me so i can clearly see the beginning and end of a lot of different phenomenon. It still allows me to see deeper and deeper into them,

Reading the satipatthana, learning interpretations of it by various bhikku's and meditators has provided me with a framework which allows me to use as an internal reference when seeing various sensations and mindstates come and go. What it does for me is give me an opportunity to quickly see it for what it is and then see it go, instead of falling into my own trap of over-complicating the state and trying to find the correct label for it.

Now don't get me wrong. I realize that watching the breath can go a long way and I do just sit and watch it from time to time. I am not hung up so to speak on this technique exclusively and do explore the fringes of experience while i am on the cushion.

When talking vipassana and the satipatthana though I do like to keep the conversation about those aspects of meditation I learned and practice to be vipassana and satipatthana related. (does that make sense?)

All this though is reflection and contemplation. During my walks and sits. I have my feet and my breath as anchors. I don't go out of my way to " find" other sensations. What i do do when I find my attention has drifted is make a quiet mental note of where I am at that time and return to my anchor. walking or breath..

The once per second is more that I find my attention drifts at such an interval from sensation to sensation than that I go out of my way to label a new thing every second.

With Love
Eelco

Ps. I am getting curious on why you keep such close tabs on what Gem says.
Why do you care?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Keeping track of Gem's pivots:

1. The Satipatthana sutra so philosophical and would require discussion of "wider teachings"

OLD




When pointed out:





NEW



Gem is now willing and able to talk about the Satiphatthana, which includes the main meditation teachings of the Buddha, and is now no longer philosophical to Gem.

2. Gem announces he is referring to the Satiphatthana Sutra, and that he actually meant the Maha-Satipatthana Sutra (which is actually exactly the same, except with the Four Noble Truths appended).

OLD


When pointed out:



NEW



Gem linked to a complex and extended commentary version which perhaps sought to justify how "philosophical" he thought it was

3. Gem assures us his certainty is correct arguing that the two sutras were delivered separately. When pointed out Thanissaro Bhikkhu and others say it is exactly the same except with the Four Noble Truths appended, this is conveniently overlooked.

OLD

(that the two sutras were spoken in two different sermons.

When pointed out: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...9&postcount=25



When again pointed out the words are exactly the same, with Four Noble Truths appended to the Maha Sutra, Gem tries again:



the detailed instructions found in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta and the Sattipatthana Sutta apparently belong to a later period, when the Buddha's teaching had spread from the Ganges valley to the distant Kammasadhamma in the Kuru country, where both discourses were spoken.

Ignores evidence http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...9&postcount=25 and provides link to an ambiguous statement

Other pivots:
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...5&postcount=98
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...#post1672 297
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...#post1675 948

BT

I took 'both discourses spoken' to mean discourses given at different times. .I thought my teacher also said they are spoken separately as well. I stand corrected on the extended 4NT.

I will not stand for this sort of Derision, BT, and I tried to suggest 'right speech' would be more appropriate. I tried ignoring all your unkind remarks, I tried answering things that were no personally directed to show I available for conversation, but am not interested in the drama. I am personally trying to refine how I deal with people who create affront, and you provide the practice, but you have to understand, there is no way to make your angst go away like this. I don't wan't it, so I don't take it. I feel it in the sensation, I know it, but what me worry - it's just sensation.

I'll still have boundaries. The occasional unkind comment is warrented, but the persistent unrelenting derision is crossing the line. I have to do what it takes to protect my boundaries, you understand, otherwise I'm subject to any level of abuse, innit. I also consider the benefit of others around me - they don't benefit by these rude affronts. Some enjoy the melodrama, but reasonable people don't need the disturbance. The irony is, we sit around talking about the high meditation, but the words clearly indicate mindlessness, no right speech. From a reasonable perspective people will see that and consider us all full of it just because one person arguing accusing insinuating. Then the whole Buddhist section gets a bad name because people come here and see someone pounding on some poor fool like Gem. Then there's the rules of the forum which are designed to protect people from all the 'wrong speech'. Admin is already sick of 'babysitting' the Buddhist section as well, so it makes their life more difficult when BT starts contravening the 'respect rules'. Lastly, what you are doing isn't kind. It hurtful and potentially harmful. These incessant, long term, unrelenting put downs are precisely internet bulling; it's cruel conduct, and it has been tolerated out of compassion for quite some time, but now I'm out of options, I don't know what to do, I don't think there is anything I can do, so I sincerely hope you realise what you are doing, understand your driving intent, and cease this derisive onslaught.

I want to refine the way I deal with contention, and I appreciate the opportunity, but my skills aren't yet refined enough, so I will have to more crudley assert my boundaries. For now I'll just use the ignore function, and we'll see how that goes.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

I'm ok with some confusion. That is to say.
I've done a mahasi style retreat (Ajahn Tong Sirimangalo derivative) almost 4 years ago.
A year after I read Daniel Ingrams mastering the core teachings of the buddha. For a while after that i've been reading up on both samatha and vipassana. Tried both for a while, but found that that was confusing. After reading right concentration by Leigh Brasington, Practicing the Jhanas by tina rasmussen and Stephen Snyder and meditating for a while with the help of Thannisaro Bhikku's description of breath meditation. I decided to stick with the dry insight vipassana style I learned at retreat.

The main reason for doing this is that as a layperson, with 6 children, a full time job and some pets the time and dedication required to actually rise beyond base samadhi or acces concentration seems near impossible at the moment.

In time I found that the vipassana style I do practice brings me to acces concentration quick enough for me so i can clearly see the beginning and end of a lot of different phenomenon. It still allows me to see deeper and deeper into them,

Reading the satipatthana, learning interpretations of it by various bhikku's and meditators has provided me with a framework which allows me to use as an internal reference when seeing various sensations and mindstates come and go. What it does for me is give me an opportunity to quickly see it for what it is and then see it go, instead of falling into my own trap of over-complicating the state and trying to find the correct label for it.

Now don't get me wrong. I realize that watching the breath can go a long way and I do just sit and watch it from time to time. I am not hung up so to speak on this technique exclusively and do explore the fringes of experience while i am on the cushion.

When talking vipassana and the satipatthana though I do like to keep the conversation about those aspects of meditation I learned and practice to be vipassana and satipatthana related. (does that make sense?)

All this though is reflection and contemplation. During my walks and sits. I have my feet and my breath as anchors. I don't go out of my way to " find" other sensations. What i do do when I find my attention has drifted is make a quiet mental note of where I am at that time and return to my anchor. walking or breath..

The once per second is more that I find my attention drifts at such an interval from sensation to sensation than that I go out of my way to label a new thing every second.

With Love
Eelco

Ps. I am getting curious on why you keep such close tabs on what Gem says.
Why do you care?

Yes, as we do care what each other may have to say (though that caring is not the same as what you mean by 'caring' above). What I say is relevant, worthy of attention, in the same way as what you or another member says.

I like the way you approach your practice with research, discern, practice, refine.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

straight to the point.

Well I get the message - it's a dismissal.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

What i do do when I find my attention has drifted is make a quiet mental note of where I am at that time and return to my anchor. walking or breath..

catsquotl, can you please kindly give me an example of a quiet mental note, so I do not misunderstand this point?

Originally Posted by catsquotl

The once per second is more that I find my attention drifts at such an interval from sensation to sensation than that I go out of my way to label a new thing every second.

Can you please give me an example of the different sensations you are canvassing i.e. please give me a live example of how it might be for you (using words of course as we are on a forum )

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Ps. I am getting curious on why you keep such close tabs on what Gem says. Why do you care?

Disagreements or different experiences and perspectives are not an issue - it is a welcome part of the diversity of this world and forums like this. sky123's example for example is one such positive note - he is sharing and being honest both in what he does and how he sees it. That is respected. (irrespective of how I interpret practice or definitions) What is not respected is dishonesty (lies, misrepresentation, lack of truthfulness) or game playing. I am aware and remember all conversations I have on this forum with co-members - but not all need to be repeated because they are simply direct and honest.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Gem

I took 'both discourses spoken' to mean discourses given at different times. .I thought my teacher also said they are spoken separately as well. I stand corrected on the extended 4NT.

I will not stand for this sort of Derision, BT, and I tried to suggest 'right speech' would be more appropriate. I tried ignoring all your unkind remarks, I tried answering things that were no personally directed to show I available for conversation, but am not interested in the drama. I am personally trying to refine how I deal with people who create affront, and you provide the practice, but you have to understand, there is no way to make your angst go away like this. I don't wan't it, so I don't take it. I feel it in the sensation, I know it, but what me worry - it's just sensation.

I'll still have boundaries. The occasional unkind comment is warrented, but the persistent unrelenting derision is crossing the line. I have to do what it takes to protect my boundaries, you understand, otherwise I'm subject to any level of abuse, innit. I also consider the benefit of others around me - they don't benefit by these rude affronts. Some enjoy the melodrama, but reasonable people don't need the disturbance. The irony is, we sit around talking about the high meditation, but the words clearly indicate mindlessness, no right speech. From a reasonable perspective people will see that and consider us all full of it just because one person arguing accusing insinuating. Then the whole Buddhist section gets a bad name because people come here and see someone pounding on some poor fool like Gem. Then there's the rules of the forum which are designed to protect people from all the 'wrong speech'. Admin is already sick of 'babysitting' the Buddhist section as well, so it makes their life more difficult when BT starts contravening the 'respect rules'. Lastly, what you are doing isn't kind. It hurtful and potentially harmful. These incessant, long term, unrelenting put downs are precisely internet bulling; it's cruel conduct, and it has been tolerated out of compassion for quite some time, but now I'm out of options, I don't know what to do, I don't think there is anything I can do, so I sincerely hope you realise what you are doing, understand your driving intent, and cease this derisive onslaught.

I want to refine the way I deal with contention, and I appreciate the opportunity, but my skills aren't yet refined enough, so I will have to more crudley assert my boundaries. For now I'll just use the ignore function, and we'll see how that goes.

"it's hurtful and potentially harmful"

I mean no harm to you at all - and I appreciate your candor and forthrightness in this post. Take care.

BT

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

catsquotl, can you please kindly give me an example of a quiet mental note, so I do not misunderstand this point?

Sure.
When I start my meditation session. I stand at the beginning of my walking path(3.5 meters in the bedroom ) I softly think to myself. Standing. As I am about to move I note(softly think to myself) Intending(to move). When I start my step I note raising when my heel lifts of the floor. Lifting when my foot comes of the floor .moving as my foot moves forward. lowering as my foot descends towards the ground again touching when the ball of my foot touches the ground. pressing as my weigth transfers to it.

I use the 6 notes a step method as I find it helps me reach access concentration quicker.
Some use 3 or 4 notes a step

When sitting i noteraisingas by belly swells at the inhale and falling as the belly emties.
I try to make the note as long as the sensation lasts. so when my breathing is slow in my mind it will sound like Raaaaaiiiiiisssssssiiiiiinnnnngggggg silencefaaaaaaaaaaliiiiiiiiiinnggggggggg silence
Preferably the note starts at the start of the sensation. goes along the middle and ends at the moment the sensation ends. When the timing is synchronous (mind and sensations)the silences that follow are quite profound

As soon as I become aware of anything other than the meditation object i make a quick note of it. when thoughts arise thinking, thinking, or planning, planning. I note as often as is comfortable for the duration of the "distraction" and then return to the anchor.

Distraction in't the proper word though.The way I was thought vipassana it isn't necisarily keeping the mind steady on one meditation object. (that's just to get started) but to make what is present the object of your meditation.

when I hear a sound. I note hearing, hearing hearing or contact ear, contact ear, contact ear.

When I get annoyed at a sound.
unpleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or just annoyed, annoyed depending on where in the dependent origination cycle I pick up on it.

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Can you please give me an example of the different sensations you are canvassing i.e. please give me a live example of how it might be for you (using words of course as we are on a forum )

Well I'll drop a link of a short 3 minute kenneth folk video.
What he does is somewhat similar. So you can get an idea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W30oR1UDBI
In the video he uses only a simple subset of the words I use. Also i find in my meditations the rhythm and timing can vary dramatically where Kenneth in the video keeps it rather consistent

For the moment still I like to only incorporate notes that I can relate back to the satipattana and is in real time. So notes about the cemetery contemplation's are non-existent in my experience whereas, breathing long, short , the feelings, bending lowering, standing, turning , happy, farting, yawning, lazy, wandering, sad, angry calm etc all do come round

With Love

I am aware that most notes are a complex set of more than one sensation. Also that within the time I note a particular state or perception. Others perceptions come and go . This is an area I am still actively trying to find a way to deal with. either silently let them arise and pass. or just quickly wordlessly note them. If I do try to silently note every possible sensation and I am not concentrated enough yet I loose focus. whereas if I am in the zone so to peak i can reach alarming high rates of precision in seeing each and every individual sensation at they arise and pass.

With Love
Eelco