Ponder this...

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by din

am I appearing in the world?

or

is the world appearing in me???

Ok, so if there is a 'you' and the universe/'all that is' is appearing in you, what are you appearing in? Or are you the unlimited and eternal Source itself? If so, you should be able to tell me what number I am thinking of (I will give you a clue, its less that 1000).

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by din

am I appearing in the world?

or

is the world appearing in me???

Hello Din,

It is both. Can go beyond thought and into perhaps it is the way this physical existence is set up. Meaning there seems to be laws or agreement (if you like) that form structures that one experiences and perceives and that others perceive ones form as well. What creates and/or maintains these laws, I don't know.

The world also appears to the individual through its formations and movements and change.

I don't feel all of this has to do with thought. It is, IMO, a matter of paying attention/focus to sometimes see the details and letting go the need to do so, just to do it. It all goes on regardless of this though.

It is how one chooses and whether one chooses. Meaning, you can pick and choose what is appearing or just allow it to appear. Make sense?

Now I have not worked this all out. Just presenting some ways of perhaps looking at it.

[Adrienne]

Originally Posted by Internal Queries

LOL so threads like this one are just exercise wheels in the hamster cage. **squeak squeak squeak**

smiling pragmatically.

Internal Queries, you are so funny !

Originally Posted by andrew g

Im not saying you are on the forum to sound consistent and I dont have an issue with contradiction or paradox at all, but what you tend to illustrate to me is confusion (thats your cue to fall back on the projecting defense).

my sense is what you view as confusion, i view as freedom

freedom from being tightly tied to thought

freedom from consistency

freedom to allow thoughts to be as they are

why have any need to control them or have them fit some kind of mental paradigm

just let them be what they are

Neither do I have an issue if you want to suggest that physical reality is illusory, but to suggest that thought is real and that physical reality is not makes no sense.

i don't know if i said this, perhaps i did, perhaps i didn't

but one thing i'm sure of

is i have no need to hold to any "position" with regard to any of it

anything i may say now

may not be how i view it a moment from now

so don't hold me to anything i say

and that, to me, feels like freedom

freedom to simply let thoughts be what they are

Over and over again you tell me (and others) that ideas are just ideas, but ideas are not separate from reality. In holding yourself separate from ideas

there is no holding myself separate from ideas

there is simply the recognition of ideas

and an allowing them to be what they are

and even that was saying too much!

nothing really needs to be said about any of it

it simply is what it is

and what it is is totally unknowable and totally incomprehensible



you hold yourself in separation. Furthermore you cant live as Beingness because you are not just Beingness, you are Beingness AND not-Beingness, you are the absolute AND the relative, the formless AND the form, the Creator AND the Created.

Thats why you dont take from little old ladies din. There is a recognition at a deep level that you are part of a physical reality, and because we are all the same at an absolute level, to hurt another is to hurt yourself. There is a deep recognition of both oneness and individuation.

that last part sounds good to me!

aside from the little old ladies comment, not sure where that is coming from

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hello Din,

It is both. Can go beyond thought and into perhaps it is the way this physical existence is set up. Meaning there seems to be laws or agreement (if you like) that form structures that one experiences and perceives and that others perceive ones form as well. What creates and/or maintains these laws, I don't know.

The world also appears to the individual through its formations and movements and change.

I don't feel all of this has to do with thought. It is, IMO, a matter of paying attention/focus to sometimes see the details and letting go the need to do so, just to do it. It all goes on regardless of this though.

It is how one chooses and whether one chooses. Meaning, you can pick and choose what is appearing or just allow it to appear. Make sense?

Now I have not worked this all out. Just presenting some ways of perhaps looking at it.

you believe what you believe based on what thoughts you identify with

i do the same

should we take ourselves seriously

or should we admit we're really clueless

and just swimming around in a lake of not knowing

.................... 727














.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by din

that last part sounds good to me!

aside from the little old ladies comment, not sure where that is coming from

OK, well Im glad the last part sounded good. I want to talk about this though...

''there is no holding myself separate from ideas

there is simply the recognition of ideas

and an allowing them to be what they are

and even that was saying too much!

nothing really needs to be said about any of it

it simply is what it is

and what it is is totally unknowable and totally incomprehensible''

In recognizing ideas for what they are you are holding yourself separate from them. The only reason you would bother continually recognizing ideas for what they are is because you are scared of something. What are you scared will happen if you cease with the recognizing? Are you scared of identifying with thought? The irony is that everytime you recognize a thought for 'what it is' you actually hold a belief to be true! You say to yourself something like....''that thought isnt true'' or ''I cant know that is true''......and these are more beliefs! So, firstly, the strategy of recognizing thoughts for what they are perpetuates the identification (though it seems like freedom) and secondly, its entirely possible that the thought IS true and that you CAN know that the thought is true. As you said yourself, freedom is about not aligning to any particular position, and you align to a position the moment you recognize thoughts for 'what they are'. You are turning 'not-knowing' into a position (which means its not really not-knowing).

In the end din, Im not really saying that there is anything wrong with your strategy as we are kind of stuck with strategies to some degree. But if something concerns me about your approach, its that you cant see that your strategy is perpetuating identification and separation and yet you think you are free from identification and separation.

By the way, when you use that blue twisted smile symbol thing it comes across to me as if you think you are right about something. Which is kind of ironic really given the 'clueless' stance you are adopting.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by din

you believe what you believe based on what thoughts you identify with

i do the same

should we take ourselves seriously

or should we admit we're really clueless

and just swimming around in a lake of not knowing

Maybe you are not clueless. Maybe you know a lot. Not knowing is not about knowing that you are clueless. Its about being open to the possibility that maybe you are clueless and maybe you do have a clue.

Greetings..

Life is going to happen, and we are going to participate.. in a myriad of individual ways, in a Universe of the Whole manifesting itself without interference, manipulation, or control.. that process unfolds through each of our individual perspectives, and what we see/experience is our 'choice'.. we are what we have chosen to be, and the beauty of that is that we are free to choose again and again.. Life is synonymous with opportunity, choose well..

Be well..

Originally Posted by andrew g

OK, well Im glad the last part sounded good. I want to talk about this though...

''there is no holding myself separate from ideas

there is simply the recognition of ideas

and an allowing them to be what they are

and even that was saying too much!

nothing really needs to be said about any of it

it simply is what it is

and what it is is totally unknowable and totally incomprehensible''

In recognizing ideas for what they are you are holding yourself separate from them. The only reason you would bother continually recognizing ideas for what they are is because you are scared of something. What are you scared will happen if you cease with the recognizing? Are you scared of identifying with thought? The irony is that everytime you recognize a thought for 'what it is' you actually hold a belief to be true! You say to yourself something like....''that thought isnt true'' or ''I cant know that is true''......and these are more beliefs! So, firstly, the strategy of recognizing thoughts for what they are perpetuates the identification (though it seems like freedom) and secondly, its entirely possible that the thought IS true and that you CAN know that the thought is true. As you said yourself, freedom is about not aligning to any particular position, and you align to a position the moment you recognize thoughts for 'what they are'. You are turning 'not-knowing' into a position (which means its not really not-knowing).

In the end din, Im not really saying that there is anything wrong with your strategy as we are kind of stuck with strategies to some degree. But if something concerns me about your approach, its that you cant see that your strategy is perpetuating identification and separation and yet you think you are free from identification and separation.

By the way, when you use that blue twisted smile symbol thing it comes across to me as if you think you are right about something. Which is kind of ironic really given the 'clueless' stance you are adopting.

hi andrew,

wow, what a great comeback!

you really are being a mirror for me here

what you wrote is terrific

you see where i'm stuck simply by what i'm saying

and that's the beauty of sharing isn't it

we help each other out by helping the other see what they are saying, what they are identifying with

thanks so much andrew

big hug!