Meditation, some answers

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by zinnat

So, all depends what an individual expects to achieve from meditation, mental well being or something extra. To achieve something extra, some extra effort is also needed.

Well explained and illustrated.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Gem

My view is non-volitional approaches are appropriate for everyone regardless of meditation experience.

I have to think more about that especially with beginners.

EDIT: I just saw the following point raised by Zinnat and, in the context of relaxation, the non-volition method can indeed work with beginners.

QUOTE 686 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by zinnat

And, yes, meditation gives relaxation, especially non-volition method.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I have to think more about that especially with beginners.

You will have to put yourself back in the shoes of a beginner. Is that possible?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Legrand

You will have to put yourself back in the shoes of a beginner. Is that possible?

Of course that is possible. Anyone can regress!

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 682 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by A human Being

'Let what comes, come, and let what goes, go - you are what remains'. I see my meditation practice as being, essentially, a state of non-resistance

While I agree with what you wrote, I'm not sure if "beginners" with "monkey mind" would be able to do this. Perhaps, my difficulty lies in what one considers a "beginner" to be.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

All of u that said in right proportions is what all religions preach and professes in my view. In that view excessive emphasis on cessation of volition may accelerate orientation towards passivity.

It's very common for novices to start with breath awareness, so I don't think the view that non-volitional approaches are inappropriate for beginners is particularly valid. It's great way to meditate, and I'd sure advocate starting with something like that. It is simple in principle, but it's hard because you don't have to do anything, which is ironic.

Buddhist was an era of hyper materialism activity in Hinduism . So His cessation advice is right only in that context . But even He may not like people taking it to extreme as He himself has tried to exercise moderation in that . So all in all our understanding of it is more or less similar.

I don't know what extreme is, but I'd say the more the better. All the time would be ideal, and it's not so extreme. It's just when you notice the mind has been lost in the dream, return to the reality of your real-lived experience.
It shouldn't become passive because if we pay attention to the moment we really live in, it lets you do everything with with attention and care, which means you do it very well. If one can practice formal meditation daily or twice daily, regularly enough that one gets a sense that today's practice follows on from yesterday's as steady progress, that's also not passive, but deliberate and determined. It also fits well within a lifestyle and enhances quality of living.

[Gem]

..........

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 682 EXCERPT:

While I agree with what you wrote, I'm not sure if "beginners" with "monkey mind" would be able to do this. Perhaps, my difficulty lies in what one considers a "beginner" to be.

It's fine. Beginners can and probably should commence with a non-volotional approach such as breath awareness. It's perfectly suitable.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

While I agree with what you wrote, I'm not sure if "beginners" with "monkey mind" would be able to do this. Perhaps, my difficulty lies in what one considers a "beginner" to be.

It can definitely be highly beneficial (and probably even necessary) to have some point of focus to return your attention to, particularly for beginners - for example, new meditators are commonly instructed, as Gem mentioned, to observe the breath, which helps to bring one's attention out of mental activity and back into the present moment. Even practising this, of course, the mind is inevitably going to wander and feelings of frustration, irritation, boredom, etc., are liable to arise, but this is where simply noticing the arising of such thoughts and feelings comes into it - you notice, say, that you're worrying about some situation or that feelings of restlessness are present, and you return your attention to the breath.

[HITESH SHAH]

I think there is good agreement in what we are discussing .
We need to show & uphold the ideal (do's/don'ts) all need to follow physically , socially , individually and mentally .
And in practice we can offer some relaxation to the beginner depending on his place in meditation and the goal of individual / collective meditation practice to allow for real life deviations .