Eckhart Tolle

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Good, so we are in agreement about the sun can shine regardless of our belief system that either supports that fact or not .

Also, Good in that you believe that masters are not beyond attaining beliefs .

So the sticky point is perhaps that one who entertains a belief be it Tolle or Ramana or you or I will have an attachment to that belief or not .

If a teacher did not for examples sake have an attachment to his teachings then his teaching could become contradictory on a daily basis even if the same questions were asked in the same context.


What I was explaining to you earlier is that you believe that the water pours from the tap and that is a fact .

So each time you want a glass of water you turn on the tap and you don't open the oven instead .

There is therefore an attachment through your belief system and through your perception of how reality is .

I haven't been saying that you are attached to water in such a way where you could go without for a day and drink cola instead lol, I have been emphasising the nature of attachment through our perception that reflects our beliefs . You see for you to drink cola you would have a belief that cola is a water substitute and it is something that can be consumed and not painted on the walls . Every which way you turn one's perception is entwined with our beliefs and once believed that water is water and cola is cola there is an attachment present in effect . You don't have to think about it, it's built in your perception .

So when a master kills a demon it does reflect his belief and of his perception that also reflects what he believes himself to be and what the demon is and represents .

There cannot be the slaying of the demon without these attributes being present in effect .

There has to be judgement and discernment in order for the master to tell the difference between his wife and a demon and this only happens through self reflection / introspection .

In regards to this quantum stuff where one creates things through belief and that if you look to the floor the sun no longer is, is flawed in so many ways . I have had this convo before to great lengths ..


x daz x

For all intents and purposes...

Lord Shiva, the "Master of Masters"...the greatest Yogi himself...the teacher of mankind is not even free from beliefs and attachments.

We have a word for it in our culture...."LEELA" or "Divine Play" in that the Divine so CHOOSES to believe...or to be attached. It is more of a conscious effort, rather than a subconscious or habitual practice in that the average person does not have any understanding of why they do what they do...the Gods all understand, but do it ANYWAY for the education of all those around them.

Krishna killing Kamsa, Narasimha Deva killing Hiranyakashipu, Lord Rama killing Ravana, Shiva killing Prajapati Daksha..all these are just LEELAS of the Lord...along with all of the "good" things they do...and so we can say...oh, that is just Krishna being Krishna or Shiva being Shiva...etc.

In fact, Shiva was SO attached to Sati that he carried her dead body around for 12 years in grief...after beheading her father for the arrogance and insolence which caused Sati to self-emolate in the first place..(long story).

The Veerbhadra avatar of Lord Shiva is truly an amazing sight to behold.. "Heaven hath no fury like a Deva scorned".... Lord Shiva's rage, personified:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jSRBEPzci-o

In any case, I don't really care if Masters are beyond their beliefs/attachments or not because I believe that I can get Enlightened by being lazy, eating junk, not meditating, being rude or cruel to others, taking drugs, booze, eating meat, doing what I want...but then again, if it was THAT easy to become Enlightened, why isn't everybody on the planet so?

That's how I think of it anyway.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Here are two from your posts...


'What has been one of my points is that if you are earning all this money by teaching about non attachment, needs and desires then you are going to attract criticism when your name is on the worlds rich mans list for example .'

' So when Tolle or any spiritual teacher brushes his teeth and charges £1000 dollars for a retreat he is doing so through ego construct .'



And as I had stated earlier, the Self-anchored person can handle money correctly and properly without lapses of absent-mindedness, and without cravings and greed that defines the ego.

God-like, rather than berating Tolle for his hard-earned millions, I would exhort you to be an enlightened millionaire like Tolle, and invite all here to your parties.

Nuff said.

These quotes do not suggest nor do they reflect that I have an issue with spiritual teachers having money.

This is like I HAVE SAID AND EXPLAINED MANY TIMES that there can be criticism when a teacher teaches non attachment .

It's not the money that's the issue it's the teaching of non attachment that doesn't reflect their way of life .

To teach about ego, non-ego is equally what I have illustrated above and many times throughout this thread.

You can't hold onto 70 million dollars without being attached to it, even if you are saving it for charities to benefit .

They are all attachments, and beliefs through one's ego - identification of oneself .

I haven't for the record even suggested that Tolle has said that he is free from attachments, I personally find it a little odd to be attached while teaching about non attachment .

If you had understood what I have said throughout this thread then you would of known that these quotes don't reflect an issue with either Tolle having money or expressing an ego .

It's about the teachings in reflection of life lived .

Do you now understand??



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by sky123

Well I would shift my belief that the water would be coming through when the problems are solved...

I think i'll give the beer a miss because I am allergic to Alcohol and this is not a belief but a fact

Yes you would shift your belief .

In the waking world when functioning and being active we can't live without them otherwise we couldn't even cross the street . You wouldn't wait for the bus to pass you by because you wouldn't even have a belief in that it would end your life .

There isn't any doing or action or reaction that can be said or has been said already in these instances that don't include a belief and a belief by nature is an attachment to that which is believed .

There is no getting out of it, even if you are a master or goddess or santa .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

For all intents and purposes...

Lord Shiva, the "Master of Masters"...the greatest Yogi himself...the teacher of mankind is not even free from beliefs and attachments.

We have a word for it in our culture...."LEELA" or "Divine Play" in that the Divine so CHOOSES to believe...or to be attached. It is more of a conscious effort, rather than a subconscious or habitual practice in that the average person does not have any understanding of why they do what they do...the Gods all understand, but do it ANYWAY for the education of all those around them.

Krishna killing Kamsa, Narasimha Deva killing Hiranyakashipu, Lord Rama killing Ravana, Shiva killing Prajapati Daksha..all these are just LEELAS of the Lord...along with all of the "good" things they do...and so we can say...oh, that is just Krishna being Krishna or Shiva being Shiva...etc.

In fact, Shiva was SO attached to Sati that he carried her dead body around for 12 years in grief...after beheading her father for the arrogance and insolence which caused Sati to self-emolate in the first place..(long story).

The Veerbhadra avatar of Lord Shiva is truly an amazing sight to behold.. "Heaven hath no fury like a Deva scorned".... Lord Shiva's rage, personified:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jSRBEPzci-o

In any case, I don't really care if Masters are beyond their beliefs/attachments or not because I believe that I can get Enlightened by being lazy, eating junk, not meditating, being rude or cruel to others, taking drugs, booze, eating meat, doing what I want...but then again, if it was THAT easy to become Enlightened, why isn't everybody on the planet so?

That's how I think of it anyway.

I agree with what you have said in principle ..

I have read something in conversation elsewhere, where one of the masters was distraught when his master died .

This is part of the human-mind-body-emotional-body construct .

This doesn't mean that in the grand scheme of things that his master has actually died, I know that my parents live on and I have seen them since their passing but I am part human after all and I miss them greatly ..

These are attachments, so bloody what, I don't care if I express the ego or have attachments .. it's part of human life ..

I dare say if a demon killed one of krishna's wife's he wouldn't be too happy about it either ..


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade
I'm not going to do the time thing with you again so it's just hello and how are you. By the way, you're non-attachment is.... more cool than any of the words of wisdom I've seen here.

Sometimes it's worth it to feel as though it's not worth it. As Daz has been trying to point out in this thread and nobody wants to listen - we're only human after all. Admitting that and coming to terms with it has been a huge step for me, because often the human side hasn't been sunshine and roses.

I'm attached to my childhood memories Muffin, and even though they weren't the best I'm attached to them too because they've brought me here. I remember seeing a vision of myself as a kid - snotty nose, short trousers and scarred knees, every hair on my head out of harmony. I still Love that kid. They say that if you don't know where you've been you don't know where you're going.

I spent as few years as a working medium and one thing came through loud and clear, that even in Spirit Souls hadn't forgotten some of the things they Loved to do while they were here. One said he missed the garden he Loved so much. While I can appreciate that some find what the Hindu masters said about attachment as sacred, for me it's small things like this that throws it all to the winds.

And sometimes inspiration comes at you from different sources at the same time - you being one of them. Thanks, your dudeness.

Greenslade hello there...very nice exchange with Muffin! BTW hope all's well w/Mrs G. I agree that our memories, we ourselves, and those in our lives are all priceless...and I enjoyed reading what you and Muffin had shared.

Just wanted to say...I think the human aspect has been overlooked as well.
Daz has been saying repeatedly that there is an integrity gap with Tolle and I agree. And why is it so hard to accept with Tolle that the man is human and has some flaws and weaknesses just like the rest of us? Clearly he has some attachment issues. Some things that he could come clean about and set forth for healing and ultimately for making some amends. Just like the rest of us ordinary folks. Why not keep just the 1st million, to assuage those attachment issues and fears of poverty? Or maybe the 1st 10 mil? LOL...

I will also say, beyond that, I personally wouldn't take any teacher seriously who was raking in millions and not directing the bulk of those millions to the general upkeep of their religious community and/or their society...such as the needy. That's beyond what God-Like might say. But IMO we've got more than enough egregiously greedy, amoral businessmen...far too many. Their lust for power and money drives them to do unspeakable things to countless numbers. So...money ok, but vast fortunes and immense sums of money does become suspect. Simply put, there is a disconnect, a detachment and thus a decline in empathy for the rest of humanity and their common experiences. Many studies have indicated these or similar findings.

Regardless, if one does or does not agree with me or whomever, then just as you've said, there's never a reason for incivility or discourtesy, or for name calling or mocking. I was glad to read you and Daz and others had noted that recently.

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Greenslade hello there...very nice exchange with Muffin! BTW hope all's well w/Mrs G. I agree that our memories, we ourselves, and those in our lives are all priceless...and I enjoyed reading what you and Muffin had shared.

Just wanted to say...I think the human aspect has been overlooked as well.
Daz has been saying repeatedly that there is an integrity gap with Tolle and I agree. And why is it so hard to accept with Tolle that the man is human and has some flaws and weaknesses just like the rest of us? Clearly he has some attachment issues. Some things that he could come clean about and set forth for healing and ultimately for making some amends. Just like the rest of us ordinary folks. Why not keep just the 1st million, to assuage those attachment issues and fears of poverty? Or maybe the 1st 10 mil? LOL...

I will also say, beyond that, I personally wouldn't take any teacher seriously who was raking in millions and not directing the bulk of those millions to the general upkeep of their religious community and/or their society...such as the needy. That's beyond what God-Like might say. But IMO we've got more than enough egregiously greedy, amoral businessmen...far too many. Their lust for power and money drives them to do unspeakable things to countless numbers. So...money ok, but vast fortunes and immense sums of money does become suspect. Simply put, there is a disconnect, a detachment and thus a decline in empathy for the rest of humanity and their common experiences. Many studies have indicated these or similar findings.

Regardless, if one does or does not agree with me or whomever, then just as you've said, there's never a reason for incivility or discourtesy, or for name calling or mocking. I was glad to read you and Daz and others had noted that recently.

Peace & blessings
7L

Thanks for the sane interjection ..

There are many issues at play here as many have noticed so getting the actual point of what has actually been said and what that means has been most difficult .

The thing is, if you put certain teachers in a certain light then you are imagining that they are immune from the human side of life as discussed .

The human side of life reflects many levels of self and attachments through means of emotional and mental expressions .

It is pure fantasy to suggest that certain teachers can go around killing others for instance without reflecting human qualities as discussed .

There has to be an attachment to know an attachment, there requires ego to notice ego .. if one was above all this there would be no comparisons to see and no compassion, there would be no understanding of suffering from a position of the sufferer .

This is also why I have emphasised the need for the comparison of self and no self .

No self doesn't reflect anything mindful therefore anything mindful reflects self .

LOL in regards to keeping the 1st Mill, or the 10th .. I agree in what you said, what I have said however is even if Tolle was saving it all up to give to others in a selfless gesture he would still be attached to the gesture and what is means and entails ..

Attachments are not bad in themselves, they are simply formed through our self identity and how we perceive life according to our beliefs .

We can't prise apart this combo because it is a part of human life experience and the mind-body construct by design.

There are times as discussed where non functioning states reflects minimum self-awareness and with this at a minimum sense there is no self identity for attachments to be made . There is no association to oneself and money for examples sake .

This non attachment isn't reflected in killing others or teaching others about non attachment .




x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I agree with what you have said in principle ..

I have read something in conversation elsewhere, where one of the masters was distraught when his master died .

This is part of the human-mind-body-emotional-body construct .

This doesn't mean that in the grand scheme of things that his master has actually died, I know that my parents live on and I have seen them since their passing but I am part human after all and I miss them greatly ..

These are attachments, so bloody what, I don't care if I express the ego or have attachments .. it's part of human life ..

I dare say if a demon killed one of krishna's wife's he wouldn't be too happy about it either ..


x daz x

Hey there Dazzer
I think we so often have it all wrong. It is our human love for Source and for others in our lives that is so redeeming, so pure, and so sacred. It is precisely these things which we call attachments which engage us and bind us ("yoke"/yoga, tefillah - referring to a prayer and also to an awakening and thus also a bonding, like the yogi...prayer is communion...it is a labor of awakening the hidden love within the heart until a state of intimate union with the divine is achieved.

I've been taking a Kabbalah course on prayer. I don't do formal prayer much and I have generally only make requests sparingly -- for healing, for well-being, for special needs. Mostly they are for all existence, for their highest good. I didn't feel right about asking at all for most of my life, but there were unspoken prayers and thanks even then, no doubt. Some thanks I can clearly still recall offering as a child.

According to Kabbalah (only partway through the course), the prayers which are most heartfelt and thus desirable are believe it or not requests - -where we bear our heart and are raw, vulnerable, transparent, and honest. Talking is fine too...it's however you need to commune with the Divine. I find talking hard...unless I'm talking to a guide or "someone", so to speak. But it's the heartfelt emotions, the core yearning for communion with the divine, the authentic love we feel for those in our lives, the purity of our grief...these are the most desired things that can be offered to the universe, to the divine.

And yet I so often hear how these are the things that we look down on...or the things we may fear or mistrust within ourselves, either. In fact...this is what remains when all else passes, as Greenslade and Muffin were just saying. It's our humanity and our struggle to right-align with centre and the deepest yearnings of our heart which are most precious to What Is....because our humanity also contains our divinity, even while naturally occluding some of it.

And I think it's the simple humanity and what we value most -- the love of Source and the love of others in our lives who are closest to us -- that has in various ways been omitted from this discussion at times, just as I was mentioning to GS. It's this love that informs and transforms us and all we are and all we do.

So I think there is a balance here that we need to find and honour, just as you're doing.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Thanks for the sane interjection ..

There are many issues at play here as many have noticed so getting the actual point of what has actually been said and what that means has been most difficult .

The thing is, if you put certain teachers in a certain light then you are imagining that they are immune from the human side of life as discussed .

Hey there Daz you're very welcome. We crossed in the mail just now. Agreed on this...and the proof is in the pudding. What do they say and what do they do? That's what we can speak to.

The human side of life reflects many levels of self and attachments through means of emotional and mental expressions .

It is pure fantasy to suggest that certain teachers can go around killing others for instance without reflecting human qualities as discussed .

There has to be an attachment to know an attachment, there requires ego to notice ego .. if one was above all this there would be no comparisons to see and no compassion, there would be no understanding of suffering from a position of the sufferer .

That's true. We are not separate from who and what we are. And that is not a bad thing...we revile it, we denigrate it, we seek to detach or numb out or live in denial, etc. But our humanity is what both contains and reveals our divinity. This is who we are...and whilst there are great iniquities that need addressed and healed, there is also much that is good and sacred. Such as the innermost core of who and what we are. And (apparently, per the rabbis) the deepest and most intimate and profound yearnings of our soul - the yearnings for communion with the Divine, which we reflect in our love for Source, self, and others.

BTW...per my Kabbalah course on prayer, ideally, we should make prayers of request frequently (daily or similar)...and they should be as raw and honest and possible. Mystics and teachers say here is no such thing as too many -- though ideally they are right-aligned Talk about living right in the midst of your humanity. But there is no separation, is there? And we are who we are, no matter where or when.

You are right to be honest about your love and your grief for your folks, and to integrate all that with who you are -- rather than detaching from "the pain-body", etc. That love, that grief, and that yearning are real and honest...and that love remains, when all else has passed.

This is also why I have emphasised the need for the comparison of self and no self .

No self doesn't reflect anything mindful therefore anything mindful reflects self .

Right - I always come back to the integration of the awakening or realisation in our day-to-day lives, and many don't want to go there...so then, what else do we do? We have to live our lives and I for one want to bring it all with me and live consciously, as best I can.

LOL in regards to keeping the 1st Mill, or the 10th .. I agree in what you said, what I have said however is even if Tolle was saving it all up to give to others in a selfless gesture he would still be attached to the gesture and what is means and entails ..

I think by far Tolle's contribution to the collective consciousness would be owning all this and making some sort of amends, in which he says I'll give it to this charity or group of charities because they are meaningful to me or because they alleviate base suffering, or w/e. What he said to date, who really cares, it's been said, LOL. It's what he's learnt about his own hidden iniquity (meaning, that which he seeks to keep hidden) and what he's done with it which would be helpful.

Attachments are not bad in themselves, they are simply formed through our self identity and how we perceive life according to our beliefs .

We can't prise apart this combo because it is a part of human life experience and the mind-body construct by design.

Yes. Moreover, attachments which are authentically loving (like you and your folks) are not only not bad, they are the best of us and closest to Source. They are the pinnacle of human achievement and the gateway to transformation to the heart-led consciousness. Once living from the awakened heart-led consciousness, you value authentic love and your authentically loving connections only ever more -- never less. Ever more, never less.

There are times as discussed where non functioning states reflects minimum self-awareness and with this at a minimum sense there is no self identity for attachments to be made . There is no association to oneself and money for examples sake .

This non attachment isn't reflected in killing others or teaching others about non attachment .

x daz x

True...and it's alright to have attachments as you say, so long as we own those attachments rather than saying we have none. And then ideally, so long as they are right-aligned ;). But you're absolutely right that until we accept that we do all have attachments, we certainly won't be taking ownership for them, now will we? This is perhaps where Tolle is struggling in his own way, just as we all do.

However, there are some of us who are able to say, yes, we have attachments -- and moreover, those which are at the core of our being are good and true. They are the best of our humanity and our divinity, both. It's some of those other attachments which are not at core which may need some work.

Peace & blessings Daz
7L

Maybe Tolle is planning to build a giant amusement park with
a giant roller coaster with his millions.

He may call this coaster "THE NOW MONSTER".

(((( ))))
^^^^^^^

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I think by far Tolle's contribution to the collective consciousness would be owning all this and making some sort of amends, in which he says I'll give it to this charity or group of charities because they are meaningful to me or because they alleviate base suffering, or w/e. What he said to date, who really cares, it's been said, LOL. It's what he's learnt about his own hidden iniquity (meaning, that which he seeks to keep hidden) and what he's done with it which would be helpful.

Countries like America, EU and Russia spends trillions on weapons research and creating weapons of mass destruction each year, which can destroy the world many times over.

Don't you think that these nations should invest their trillions instead in charities which could help humanity or invest in combatting of global warming!

Obviously we can expect results with such trillion dollar investments, not with Tolle's few milllions.

What do you think !