Realizations and conclusions of the mind and beyond ..

[Questions]

Originally Posted by muffin

Good afternoon Questions

Go and play in lounge, you'll soon get your count up

If you want to find it type "I met a fully enlightened buddha" in Google search and it should be the first one linking to dharmaoverground, it's also posted on abovetopsecret by the same guy

[muffin]

Originally Posted by Questions

If you want to find it type "I met a fully enlightened buddha" in Google search and it should be the first one linking to dharmaoverground, it's also posted on abovetopsecret by the same guy

Thanks. Not my thing, got all the help I need

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

What I personally think, and for what it is worth...

All of these notions about what we are and what we are not, are just mental convolutions and acrobatics. Whilever we allow ourselves to get hung up on a paradigm, even if it is resultant from experience, we are just missing the whole point, because of the inherent limitations when it comes to the capacity of the mind to comprehend any nebulous concepts such as "Nirvana" or "God" or "Spirituality" or "Karma" or "Unconditional Love".

We may have had "heart experiences" or received information which totally bypassed the conditioned mind and any belief systems within our own sphere of perceptual reference, however, trying to convey that through the senses and mental apparatus to another who cannot relate to ever having had such an experience, is an exercise in pure folly...and the reason why I am winding down my participation here.

Self-actualization is an individual affair, which many try to articulate and many fail in doing so. It is not like saying "the stove is hot - put your hand on it and see" because with any form of extra sensory cognition, the physical senses are not involved, so the whole metaphor becomes irrelevant.

The "language of spirituality" is expressed through action and not words or concepts and others opinions of how things should be, is also thus irrelevant.

We shall take that example of losing weight.

I am about 40lbs overweight and I need to go on a diet and do more exercise to lose this excess baggage.

Now, many may say "you should just love and accept yourself for who you are....being overweight is okay".

However, I notice that those who say such things are on the heavy side themselves and they want to have their cake and eat it too!

For myself, it is NOT about "body image" NO!

I just want to be able to walk up a flight of stairs without puffing and panting, be able to do certain Yoga postures like paschimottanasana without my big tummy stopping me, lessen the strain on my knees and hips to alleviate the symptoms of my osteoarthritis and to be able to go horseriding again without feeling sorry for the poor beast...it has more to do with "feeling good" as opposed to "looking good" - that will just be a 'bonus'.

It is all well and good for others to say "accept yourself for who your are"...but what if "who you are" is yet to come and is subject to positive change? wouldn't you be settling for less than you could be, if your acceptance of self does nothing more than just condone and reinforce comfort zones and bad habits?

This is why it is called "Spiritual Growth" and not "Spiritual Stagnation".

Sure, they are just mental convolutions and acrobatics, but in a way there's nothing wrong with a philosopher's mind lol ..

Some say peeps think too much and even my understandings are too mindful, there perhaps isn't going to be a happy medium where pleasing other's is concerned .

If one was true to themselves then perhaps the world would be in a different place, but we are where we are at for a reason ..

Your touching upon something here also about what relates to the physicality of the mind-body experience and wishing just to walk up a flight of stairs without puffing and panting and this is on a similar wavelength to Justbe and I where we have been speaking of relating to the here and now ..

I dare say there are not that many people who suffer through the physical experience and just put it down to some dream experience and that the ailments are not real or there is no-one here to be fat or too thin or have any aches and pains ...

In my understanding it's good to be flexible in your understandings, but not too flexible where you pass off your ailments or addictions to some lower self entity that isn't the real Self ..

This I feel is just missing the whole point of the experience and it is in some way passing the buck, or putting aside one's own self sense of responsibility ..

It's like, it's not 'my' body so who cares what happens to it or what transpires ..

The funny thing is that certain teachers say there is no doer, so even when niz say's that he doesn't encourage other's to not take responsibility for themselves, well if there is no doer there is no one to take responsibility either lol..

So on one hand we have teachers that are addicted to substances and on the other one needs to take responsibility for what they do, while there is no doer ...

I am sure it could be put a cross in a way where the sense of the self being responsible and such likes isn't the real self, but continue to be responsible nevertheless ..



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustBe

You’ve certainly been curious about these kind of comments for a while now.

Well I seem to have the knack of seeing through people . I seem to have the knack of reading people just by looking at them hehe ..

It's part of my blueprint / design but I don't lose any sleep over people being dishonest or people idly following them ..

I am a sucker for the truth of things and I will get to the truth of things if the right energy presents itself.

Originally Posted by JustBe

Some chase the after life meanings, beyond this mind/body state, to assist there lived experience. For me now living as I am, aware of myself, I’m more inclined to just live simply. I don’t get involved in drama. I’m no longer reacting to life. I just do what I have too and do things I enjoy. Even as I may have become aware of myself as something more than this mind/body being, I quite like being in this body. It allows me to experience myself in wonderful clear ways now. It’s like being given a second chance. I’m making sure I enjoy life now and I take care of myself as best I can.

I’m awakened and travelling the streams to enjoy many things, some only like certain streams and focus there.

This vehicle allows me to experience wonderful things.

I prefer the peace and quite and I live a relatively simple life, I also prefer isolation in my own energy and within the energy of my spirit helpers and inspirers .

I think the world at large is crazy at the moment and even getting in the car to get to the shops seems like a mission nowadays full of horn blowers and angry people .. in a way it's easy not to get involved when things don't effect you, I suppose on one hand having the skin of a crocodile helps, but for the ultra sensitive, standing in the shopping queue is a mission in itself.

There in that respect doesn't need to be drama for the mind-body to absorb the stress and negativity of other's .


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Thought it might be interesting to discuss this in reflection of a conversation had on Tara's thread about the spiritual teacher Robert Adams.

This isn't a Robert Adams or any other guru bashing thread or a defending of anyone's thread, it is simply addressing what is realized per se and what is concluded via the mind and how it is so.

So firstly one would have to address 'realizations' that are either of the mind or 'realizations' that are beyond the mind.

Realizations beyond the mind cannot even be called 'realizations' to a certain extent because there is no self present. There are no mindful reflections, or comparisons had of what you are, so there cannot be the thought that I have nothing to do with the mind-body-world-reality.

So we have to get this straight as a foundation to begin with. Agreed?

What I hear often and I am sure others do also, is peeps / teachers / guru's say that they are this or they are not this etc etc,

So where does this information come from?

Hey there Dazzer -- so many good exchanges and thoughts here on the thread. I just went back to the start to respond.

So often, I find myself going back to the exchange between Einstein and Tagore. And I always get something new out of it. Einstein believed there was an objective reality/transcendence out there. Tagore said we are limited by our apprehension, so for us, if we cannot apprehend it, it does not exist/is not "real" for us. Of course, they are both correct.

Our individuated consciousness confirms our "objective" reality. It is not so much "I think, therefore I am" (LOL), it is more, "I am, therefore I am". Sound familiar? We exist singly, all that is exists "singly", and we all exist as One. Transcendence therefore also exists, though as Tagore and Einstein both agreed, we cannot apprehend it fully or perhaps at all in its Truth.

It's easy to have an experience of the mind and burn your hand on the stove for examples sake.

You realize that the stove is hot and your hand burns.

These are all experiential realizations had, that are all mindful.

So then there is the so called realizations beyond the mindful experience had.

Then one again becomes aware of the stove post-realization and proclaims that the mind-body-reality is an illusion and perhaps there is only an illusory self present.

How do peeps think that they have realized all this when the realization itself pertains to no thought about oneself or this world .

self and the world do not exist at this point because there is no you .

What realization is it that one has that gives one the truthful impression or the knowing that they have nothing to do with this world or the body or that they can somehow float around as an unidentified self.

x daz x

I agree, in that I always find it odd and dissonant when so much discussion of non-dualism produces a hard dualism, a schism between consciousness and all the rest. Here, I have a very deep and fundamental disagreement with this approach. What is impermanent is still REAL. The multiverse etc is real, but just not infinite like consciousness. TBH we cannot prove that even this holds everywhere. But in theory, we think it holds everywhere and for all time, since we see in our own galaxy and our own planet that material things come into being and then eventually pass away and decay into component parts).

The matter and the physical reality (universe, multiverse, etc) that has been ultimately manifested from Consciousness and maintained (arising) in each continguous moment to the next is still real -- just of a finite, denser and more changeable nature. We are ever only what we are, both transcendent consciousness (infinite from the point of origin or differentiation) and impermanent matter. It is the experience of impermanence and vulnerability in our incarnations that allows for growth in consciousness.

Physicality is not a lesser state of being. It is a deeply challenging and state of being and not for the faint of heart. It is a sacred experience which allows us to grow as souls (or as spirit or individuated consciousness, whatever you prefer). Who we are is all of this, and what we carry forward is yielded by all of this. The more present and engaged and aware, the more deeper we can experience and apprehend the truth of who we are...and by extension, the truth of what is.

A large part of which is the recognition that, yes, we exist in connection and interbeing with all that is -- on every level and in every way. This is the aspect of non-duality that resonates.

But the details and distinctions within that are equally true and equally valid, as you have noted. We do resonate with some people and things more deeply than others, and that is part of a deep and important truth...the truth of not only who we are but what we have learnt and what we choose to value and honour in our lives and in our eternal being. I agree completely with you that this cannot be glossed over, as it goes against the reason for being of all that is, which is to know and be the truth of who we are more fully.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

It is all well and good for others to say "accept yourself for who your are"...but what if "who you are" is yet to come and is subject to positive change? wouldn't you be settling for less than you could be, if your acceptance of self does nothing more than just condone and reinforce comfort zones and bad habits?

This is why it is called "Spiritual Growth" and not "Spiritual Stagnation".

Shivani (happy b-day BTW ),
I completely agree and I think when you and Daz speak to the doing and being of living in the physical realm, you are getting to the point of everything. To the reason for being in the larger sense. To know and be who we are more truly.

Yes, consciousness is eternal. Our individuated consciousness is eternal from its "point of origin". Yet the point of existence is to be who we are right now, in this moment, as truly, deeply, and madly as possible . As fully as possible.

But to those who say we are "really" just pure consciousness, and that we (as pure consciousness) are somehow separate from who we are right now, in the totality of our being -- then we have IMO not yet realised ourselves in this moment. In some ways, it comes down to this...do we live and do and speak and act and think and intend as one, from our centre? From our heart-led awakened consciousness? With awakened mind in conscious service to heart?

Or do we say, as some have done...that we are really not who we are in our totality? That we are really just consciousness, so all the lying and cheating and violence and degradation and harm we perpetrate is just whatever, it's of no "real" consequence, because hey it's somehow separate from who I am? As it's not "real". As you, Daz and many others have said in so many words, I see at least some of that as a deep form disassociation. Totally understandable as we're human, but hopefully IMO it's not too long till each and every one of us realise in our way that "no matter where we go, there we are" :)

Originally Posted by God-Like

If one was true to themselves then perhaps the world would be in a different place, but we are where we are at for a reason ..

Your touching upon something here also about what relates to the physicality of the mind-body experience and wishing just to walk up a flight of stairs without puffing and panting and this is on a similar wavelength to Justbe and I where we have been speaking of relating to the here and now ..

I dare say there are not that many people who suffer through the physical experience and just put it down to some dream experience and that the ailments are not real or there is no-one here to be fat or too thin or have any aches and pains ...

Hey there Dazzer

Great thread. I agree with much of what you and some others have been speaking to.

If I were to speak even more freely on that point to some of those on SF or on this thread who see more a hard separation between material and non-material (which is duality, LOL) and further that physicality is "low man on the totem pole", I would say...so many folks have it a bit backwards ;)

Our body is innocent...it speaks truly and it is the sacred vessel of the soul. The body does not lie. When in pain, it cries out. When it thirsts or hungers, it speaks its needs. When overburdened, it breaks down. Then challenges of physicality are the manifest reasons for our incarnation -- the entire point being to ground deeply in our physicality and engage fully with the challenges it presents to our eternal soul. To our eternal consciousness.

In fact it is our incarnated consciousness which acts out and which carries our iniquities across lifetimes and bodies. It is the incarnated consciousness that has to experience physicality and grow up...to learn how to polish the diamond lotus, by living from the core truth of who we are: the eternal heart centre of our being. The body passes away in each lifetime, but YET our iniquities remain in each and every lifetime (and in each and every body) until we face them and learn how to engage and live with integrity and lovingkindness and equanimity in this moment. Why does everyone blame the body, LOL? Shooting the messenger who keeps reminding us that, it's our consciousness (not the economy in this case), stupid The desires and other challenges are there to spur us to truth in lovingkindness, compassion, and equanimity -- not in hatred or apathy or service to self.

Dealing with our own and others' physical desires and fears; urges to violence; passing emotions and moods; and our very real physical and emotional pain and loss -- these are REAL challenges, just as you've said. Getting along, the challenge of interbeing. Of contrition, forgiveness, and reconciliation in the waking world. Need I say more? These absolutely are deep, foundational challenges to the spirit. To our eternal consciousness. They are not illusory. Physicality challenges our iniquities in very real and concrete ways. Our iniquities are not "the fault of the body" or of physicality more broadly. They are spiritual in nature, and yet it is in the realm of the physical multiverse that we are graced and blessed with the opportunity to face them and engage with them in a grounded, concrete (manifest) manner, in interbeing with one another.

To some of those who say the body (and the physical realm) is banal and it is not who we are, I would say to those folks that you are who you are, no matter the when, where, or who. That is the real meaning of the saying, "Wherever you go, there you are". We could also say, "Whoever you are (in any lifetime), there you are." You will remain (with) your consciousness whether in or out of the body...this is the true meaning of hell, LOL, for those that may think they can shed their core being when the physical body falls away. Without having to deal with their stuff. Bit of a shocker then ;)

To them I would say, you are fully who you are in the body, and moreover, the challenges of physicality are in fact the greatest of blessings. The entire point of being here now is to be here now :) To ground deeply in our physicality and engage fully with the challenges it presents to our eternal soul. Ever more deeply into our eternal [heart-led] consciousness.

Peace & blessings all
7L

[davidsun]

Right on, 7L!

[lemex]

An interesting discussion, The discussion seems centered with the need for body first, not the self, being existent in a physical sense? I always ask the question, does one need to be born to be (exist). The self does not have the layer of the body. This would be the self without the body. There are not 2 selves. Was wondering, anyone feels the body is needed for the self to exist? The body raises it voice not through the mind but the body that it needs to survive.

For some, they would say the real self or the real Self is all that is beyond the mind/body, it is pure awareness empty of thought

The body self is the information already present in all physical things. We are preprogrammed in what is already existent. I don't know who set the rules (our ancestors or God) but we are not suppose to go beyond it. I could agree if it weren't for the fact of consciousness. Even if I hadn't been born, I would still exist. I will mention about realization is the presumptive of the body, and the discussion of the body and it's affect on realization, is also to realize that ideas we have (as electrical impulses) travel the same physical paths go through the same parts of the brain as information, feel the same things, likes dislikes simply are not unique in that sense. They are not spiritual but human. We forget the same area of the brain are used in everything human we do and all that information is already there will lead to the same realization as any other stimuli. Is this about the need of seeing ourselves first. It is the body that needs this game (vr). What we feel is predetermined by this.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

Contemplating upon the purpose of life we may consider that as pure awareness, we are enabled for reception but not transmission of the subtle divine love energy. Occupying bodily form, we slowly become love enabled shifting from reception as bubbling joy enhanced to unending ineffable bliss and then transmission by flowering of compassion rooted in purity.

This blossoming is possibly accomplished faster on earth so we choose to learn in this school.

***

[muffin]

Originally Posted by lemex

An interesting discussion, The discussion seems centered with the need for body first, not the self, being existent in a physical sense? I always ask the question, does one need to be born to be (exist). The self does not have the layer of the body. This would be the self without the body. There are not 2 selves. Was wondering, anyone feels the body is needed for the self to exist? The body raises it voice not through the mind but the body that it needs to survive.

Good afternoon lemex

Here another one to add to the list, could you lay the body to rest when it's time.