False Teachers & Prophets

Originally Posted by TeeHee

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Anyone want to add to this, oops lemme back track before anyone does add. For example saying that works plus salvation may make one a false teacher or prophet by what they add. Perhaps in receiving from tithing out of self interest like most televangelist on the Christian station on television? Jesus says that the broad way is the road that leads to destruction? Having said that, could one come to the conclusion that one can be helped in identifying a false teacher or prophet in that they teach the broad way? What way is broad to be exact?

I'm reminded of the old false prophets, in that they were not so false by what they said, but by what they did not say or had subtracted. For example saying that there will be a time for peace, but failing to say that there will first come tremendous hardships for the people through years of suppression, or that we first will not have to go through a wilderness.

It says that by their fruits that they will be known, but yet how do we know them? I realize that this chapter starts out with “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." But, Jesus then gives to us the ability to discern, or be the fruit inspector of others. By determining whether they are swine, or false teachers, or prophets. So what then is a good fruit, would Psalm 1 be a correct indicator?

Psalm 1

1 Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
2 but whose delight is in the law of the LORD,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.
4 Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

This is what the didache has to say:

"Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him."

I think a false prophet is someone who claims that what he says will come true, when in fact it does not:

The Second Coming of Christ: When Prophecy Failed!

Jesus: “Then the son of man will appear, coming in the clouds with great power and glory”.
Mark 13:26


Simon: “Oh goodie! When Lord? When will you come back to us?”


Jesus: “Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died”.
Mark 13:30


Simon: So my generation will live to see you on earth again?


Jesus: Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these
things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34


Simon: Do you promise my Lord?


Jesus: “I assure you that you will not finish your work in all the towns of Israel before the son of　Man comes”
Matthew 10:23

****

Simon: “Ahh..My Lord?! Not to rush you but we have finished our work in all the towns of Israel! Well it’s been 30 years now and we were all just wondering when you were thinking about coming back? Hello!!!”


And a false teacher is someone who is hypocritical and contradicts themself:

Jesus:…and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:22

Jesus: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
Matthew 23:15/17

Jesus: He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
　　　　　Luke 22:36

Jesus: Put away your sword……all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Matthew 26:52



Jesus: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you..
Matthew 5:44

Jesus: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Luke 19:27

Well, that is just my opinion!

[Riboflavin]

Michael.. Context is important.

Originally Posted by Riboflavin

Michael.. Context is important.

I could not agree more!

An allegedly omnicient infinite intelligence would maintain universal principles, be they physical, i.e gravity, or moral, i.e, not going into towns and tearing open pregnant women's stomachs and smashing the unborn babies onto the rocks!

Further, context with regards to the belief system known as Christianity is also important. It represents one (split into thousands of sects) belief system out of literally thousands on earth! that gives it a mathematical chance of being the truth, by 1 to thousands. Terrible odds. Further context may be gained by examining Christian history, in other words, what have been the fruits of the tree of Jesus? Well, I think I will leave it there for now, but yes, context is important!

Hi Michael,

I think if you took Jesus' teachings seriously yourself, you might find out what the real fruits of Jesus' teaching are. As it is, it seems you're too focused on what insincere people have done with his teachings.

I think because you are coming from a biased viewpoint, the inconsistencys you have pointed out with regards to Jesus probably seem more important to you than they really are. I could, for example, share how I don't see them as being inconsistent, but then, you'd probably say that my bias is making me see what I want to see! lol

Further, context with regards to the belief system known as Christianity is also important. It represents one (split into thousands of sects) belief system out of literally thousands on earth! that gives it a mathematical chance of being the truth, by 1 to thousands. Terrible odds. Further context may be gained by examining Christian history, in other words, what have been the fruits of the tree of Jesus? Well, I think I will leave it there for now, but yes, context is important!

It's true that Christianity (of what I would call Churchianity) is split into thousands of sects, and that amongst hundreds if not thousands or other religions, but that doesn't mean that what Jesus taught is wrong, or not the truth, it just means people have changed what he said to suit their own agendas, and found proof texts that overlook the context to support their arguments (much like what you have done here). While I believe the teachings of Jesus to be the truth, lets for a moment humor the mathematical change of Jesus' teachings within Christianity to be the truth. So, probability is 1 in thousands, agreed? Well, you wrote about all the inconsistent things Jesus taught and finished up by saying, ''this is my opinion''. Now, I appreciate hearing it, but your opinion would represent 1 in billions of opinions. If you thought there were terrible odds of Jesus' teachings as being the truth, then words fail me for what the odds are of your opinion being the truth.

Until anyone of us manages to look for a God that is bigger than our own opinion, then we're just all going to be blind leaders of the blind, groping around in the vanity of our own conclusions.

[quote=ciel_perdu]Hi Michael,

I think if you took Jesus' teachings seriously yourself, you might find out what the real fruits of Jesus' teaching are.

I do not think anyone really knows what "Jesus'" real teachings are, or even if he taught at all, let alone whether he existed, as the pseudopigraphical Gospels describe. It comes down to a matter of faith, not faith in "Jesus," but rather faith in those anonymous authors of the Gospel texts, the halucinating disciple Paul, and early church fathers who were at each others throats over who and what Jesus actually was.

As it is, it seems you're too focused on what insincere people have done with his teachings.

This is a good point. What have insincere people done with his teachings? Did they perhaps even create them from more ancient Platonic and Stoic philosophers and Greek and Hebrew mythologists, even? Upon this, whether it be the case or not, we see that they have taken "Jesus'" words at Luke 19:27 ("But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.") pretty seriously!

I studied Law in University and one thing I really admired about "good" (as in ability) Lawyers, is their ability to word contracts and covenants so precisely, that the terms of those agreements cannot be misused or abused. They leave no wiggle room, or room for misinterpretation! Now, assuming that an omnicient God/God-man wrote/inspired the NT and OT, wouldn't we expect such an intelligent creature to be able to at least perform to the level of the aforementioned mortal (in some cases) lawyers?

I think because you are coming from a biased viewpoint, the inconsistencys you have pointed out with regards to Jesus probably seem more important to you than they really are. I could, for example, share how I don't see them as being inconsistent, but then, you'd probably say that my bias is making me see what I want to see! lol

You will get no argument out of me here. Yet, I do not disbelieve in Jesus, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Allah or any of the others, I simply see them as being possibly true, or not.

It's true that Christianity (of what I would call Churchianity) is split into thousands of sects, and that amongst hundreds if not thousands or other religions, but that doesn't mean that what Jesus taught is wrong, or not the truth, it just means people have changed what he said to suit their own agendas, and found proof texts that overlook the context to support their arguments (much like what you have done here).

The logic here seems to be that; a god went to the trouble of setting out teachings and communicating them to a people of a particular epoch in time, yet bothered not to protect those teachings for future generations. Seems like the thinking of a finite, rather than infinite being to me! But, I could be wrong.

While I believe the teachings of Jesus to be the truth, lets for a moment humor the mathematical change of Jesus' teachings within Christianity to be the truth. So, probability is 1 in thousands, agreed? Well, you wrote about all the inconsistent things Jesus taught and finished up by saying, ''this is my opinion''. Now, I appreciate hearing it, but your opinion would represent 1 in billions of opinions. If you thought there were terrible odds of Jesus' teachings as being the truth, then words fail me for what the odds are of your opinion being the truth.

Again, no argument here! But this is simply a deflection from the initial point. But yes, I would not be so arrogant to boldly claim to be or even have, the truth. In the words of Manly P. Hall: "You can always trust a person in search of the truth, but never the one who has found it."

Until anyone of us manages to look for a God that is bigger than our own opinion, then we're just all going to be blind leaders of the blind, groping around in the vanity of our own conclusions.

This is a very enlightened thing to say, in my opinion. It accords with my own ideas at present.

[Morpheus]

TeeHee wrote:

This is what the didache has to say:

"Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him."

"Most scholars place the Didache at some point during the mid to late first century.[5]
It is an anonymous work, a pastoral manual "that reveals more about how Jewish-Christians saw themselves and how they adapted their Judaism for gentiles than any other book in the Christian Scriptures."[6]

The Didache is mentioned by Eusebius (c. 324) as the Teachings of the Apostles following the books recognized as canonical[8]:
"Let there be placed among the spurious works the Acts of Paul, the so-called Shepherd and the Apocalypse of Peter, and besides these the Epistle of Barnabas, and what are called the Teachings of the Apostles, and also the Apocalypse of John, if this be thought proper; for as I wrote before, some reject it, and others place it in the canon."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didache

Michael wrote:

I do not think anyone really knows what "Jesus'" real teachings are, or even if he taught at all, let alone whether he existed, as the pseudopigraphical Gospels describe. It comes down to a matter of faith, not faith in "Jesus," but rather faith in those anonymous authors of the Gospel texts, the halucinating disciple Paul, and early church fathers who were at each others throats over who and what Jesus actually was.

Ok so we don't 'really' know what his real teachings are, but we do have to go with the best that we've got. It takes faith to obey those teachings. When Jesus says something like, ''whoever does not forsake all that he owns cannot be my disciple'', that take faith to follow. Regardless of whether one knows that they are the real teachings of Jesus, the faith needed to follow something like that would stem from a faith in God. Similarly, when Jesus says, ''sell what you own and give the money to the poor'', that too takes faith in God to follow through on. When Jesus says, that we can't work for God and money, but that we have to choose, that also takes faith to obey. Most of us work hard for money, because we trust it for our food, clothes and shelter, but Jesus said, ''look at the birds and the flowers, God looks after them, won't he look after you too?''. You see it takes faith to stop working for money, and to work for love...faith in God.

This is a good point. What have insincere people done with his teachings? Did they perhaps even create them from more ancient Platonic and Stoic philosophers and Greek and Hebrew mythologists, even? Upon this, whether it be the case or not, we see that they have taken "Jesus'" words at Luke 19:27 ("But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.") pretty seriously!

What you refer to is a parable or a description of something that will happen, and not something that Jesus commanded his disciples to do. What Jesus taught about not working for money, but working for God, with the promise that God will look after all our needs if we do so, is something that I have not found in any religion or from any other spiritual teacher. The fact that the church fights tooth and nail against this, yet it is still in the gospels, is something that shows to me that there is a divine hand at work.

I studied Law in University and one thing I really admired about "good" (as in ability) Lawyers, is their ability to word contracts and covenants so precisely, that the terms of those agreements cannot be misused or abused. They leave no wiggle room, or room for misinterpretation! Now, assuming that an omnicient God/God-man wrote/inspired the NT and OT, wouldn't we expect such an intelligent creature to be able to at least perform to the level of the aforementioned mortal (in some cases) lawyers?

Why doesn't God just make us conforming puppets without any will? Your argument is that because people have abused what Jesus taught, then that means what he taught isn't true, because why would an omniscient God say anything that could be twisted. It's not very good reasoning. Generally, why do you think people twist spiritual teachings?

You will get no argument out of me here. Yet, I do not disbelieve in Jesus, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Allah or any of the others, I simply see them as being possibly true, or not.

Well, how are you going to progress in your spiritual journey? They may be true, they may not be true, so what are you going to do? I'm suggesting you fgive the teachings of Jesus a try. Just do it in faith, faith in the highest power, supreme being, or universe (whatever you call it), and see what happens. In the end, faith is what you need, until you excerise it, you'll just run yourself in circles with brain theory.

I have excercised faith in the teachings of Jesus, and know that those teachings come from God. I can't prove that to you, which is why I will just say what Jesus (or whoever you want to attribute those words to) said, ''if you want to see if what I say is my own teachings or from God, just do them!''.

It is the doing of the teachings of Jesus that pretty much no one wants to try today, and there are a million reasons one can render to not try to obey what is actually there. If they aren't from God, you'll have nothing to lose, if they are from God, and you overlook them because of your own opinions/bias, then you may find yourself with everything to lose.

Anyway, there isn't much more that can be said.

[Lightspirit]

Originally Posted by michaelsherlock

I do not think anyone really knows what "Jesus'" real teachings are, or even if he taught at all, let alone whether he existed, as the pseudopigraphical Gospels describe. It comes down to a matter of faith, not faith in "Jesus," but rather faith in those anonymous authors of the Gospel texts, the halucinating disciple Paul, and early church fathers who were at each others throats over who and what Jesus actually was.

I have heard people talk about Jesus "real" or other apparent teaching .

If there are teachings other than we have via biblical ones, then how do we know Jesus had other teachings and they actually existed?, people speculate on Jesus existence so how could one say the teachings we have are not his only main ones.
How do you know Jesus had other more relevant teachings than what we have?

I really like reading up on this stuff if i get a chance and am always after new materila to read.

I am really interested in this and would love to read up if you have some reference resources that are about the missing "real" teachings

Originally Posted by lightworkerAu

I have heard people talk about Jesus "real" or other apparent teaching .

If there are teachings other than we have via biblical ones, then how do we know Jesus had other teachings and they actually existed?, people speculate on Jesus existence so how could one say the teachings we have are not his only main ones.
How do you know Jesus had other more relevant teachings than what we have?

I really like reading up on this stuff if i get a chance and am always after new materila to read.

I am really interested in this and would love to read up if you have some reference resources that are about the missing "real" teachings

We only have the Gospel records, and they are the evidence entered into a court of Law. Clearly we are free to reject them and are free to speculate. Reminds me of Jury duty.......

Thanks L.Worker

[Morpheus]

Well for one thing, all His disciples were martyred for their persistant faith.
How's that for testimony? The latest issue of Nat'l Geographic has a good articles on the Apostles.
Then of course their are the martyrs today who are persecuted for their faith, for not denying the Lord.
Also, a recent news article on a Christian pastor who is being persecuted, and in jail facing execution by an Islamic government, for Islamic apostacy. Again, for not denying his faith.

Now, what about consensus?
We can see for, example, how Christ appreared to the Jews in the middle east in a very Far Eastern manner.
By His teachings on Faith, and prayer, and, by His miracles performed, we see how He confirmed the Eastern teachings on, "maya", as well.

And, what is modern Physics also telling us about reality, and, "The World"?

"Reality is an illusion, albeit a very persistant one."
Einstein

Now, because of the various prophesies about the appearance of the Messiah, in the Old Testament, one will either have to say either all the archeological evidence of, and the dating of the various books are a lie, or, that Jesus is not the prophesied Messiah, and the Messiah is still yet to come.

For me, not only are the words and teachings of Jesus compelling enough, but, so is the evidence surrounding Him, regarding authenticity.