Self - open discussion

[sound]

hahaha ... thats such a drag when that happens bbr ... in one way lol

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by sound

Do you consider thought as an 'actual' attribute of consciousness andrew?

An expression of consciousness, yes. A thought is an energy form.

[sound]

Originally Posted by andrew g

Just to clarify, word is ego in the sense that as soon as 'I' say 'I', I experience a very slight split and disconnection. Its a bit less so for me than for some humans because I am in observation of the split. I can see it.

In one sense, its all truth. But if we put that to one side for a moment, then I would say that some words resonate with truth more than others, i.e some words more closely reflect truth than others. I would say my words reflect truth more closely now than they did 10 years ago for example (though that is an assumption too obviously) But we cannot ever get to a stage where we speak perfect truth, we can only ever reflect truth more closely.

Again, just to repeat, in another sense, everything said and thought is truth. There are just a couple of ways of talking about all this.

Mmm and sometimes what is not spoken too .... more is less more often than not lol

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by sound

So it is not the experience of separation that is artifical but rather the belief attached to the experience yes?

Separation as an experience is real in the sense that that is what we are experiencing, but artificial in the sense that we are not actually separate at all from life and existence even though it seems as if we are to some degree. And yes, its the belief that directly creates the experience.

Originally Posted by andrew g

The experience of separation is artificial because we are not separate from life or existence at all. Can you see that?

I wonder why it is that these "Self" topics always turn into philosophical discussions regarding the reality or non-reality of... reality. Isn't is enough to accept that all contemplations of this sort are merely intellectualizations? How can anyone put forward with any certainty that this or that reality is the gospel?

I, like everyone else on this planet, experience separation from "the source" or whatever you want to call it. Therefore there is some degree of truth to the idea of separation.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by sound

Mmm and sometimes what is not spoken too .... more is less more often than not lol

Well, sitting in thoughtless silence is fine, but Im too darn sociable to do that for long hehe.

[sound]

Originally Posted by andrew g

An expression of consciousness, yes. A thought is an energy form.

ok .... I am of the same mind on that ... so each and every thought 'has its place' so to speak ... would you agree? even those thoughts that are seemingly discarded by 'self' ...

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by bbr

I wonder why it is that these "Self" topics always turn into philosophical discussions regarding the reality or non-reality of... reality. Isn't is enough to accept that all contemplations of this sort are merely intellectualizations? How can anyone put forward with any certainty that this or that reality is the gospel?

I, like everyone else on this planet, experience separation from "the source" or whatever you want to call it. Therefore there is some degree of truth to the idea of separation.

I think many of us do accept that contemplations are intellectualizations, its pretty apparent to me that a contemplation is an intellectualization, but I like to talk to people. Im not sure anyone is putting their ideas forward as if they are absolutely true.

Im not sure what you mean when you say ''there is some degree of truth to the idea of separation.''. What do you mean by 'truth' there? And are you stating that as an absolute truth?

I would agree that all of creation is separate from Source (but not from life or existence), however, we experience this separation from Source in different ways. Some aspects of creation experience this separation as joy, some experience it as conflict.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by sound

ok .... I am of the same mind on that ... so each and every thought 'has its place' so to speak ... would you agree? even those thoughts that are seemingly discarded by 'self' ...

Yes. Every thought is perfect and has its place. Thought is just as sacred as anything else.

The difficulty is that this is a spiritual forum and a place for talking, and I think what we are often really talking about is how to have a better experience, and we all have our different ideas about what that means. So when we talk about this, we inevitably end up making something into an issue, whether its thought, or belief, of self-image, or ego, or whatever.

If there is an ultimate truth I would say that its all truth, its all perfect, it all has its place. But if we all realized and actualized that, there would be nothing to talk about. Talking about this stuff requires us to set something up as a problem.

Originally Posted by andrew g

Im not sure what you mean when you say ''there is some degree of truth to the idea of separation.''. What do you mean by 'truth' there? And are you stating that as an absolute truth?

I'm saying that if the human being experiences it, there's a degree of truth to it. It's called experiencial wisdom -- different than the contemplating and intellectualizing that often passes for knowledge in forums such as this one.