The practical side of religious/spiritual beliefs

PaulChapmanTasmania,

I Like your words Maiya, they flow smoothly with heart.

Thank you for those kind words. And thank you for your patience and for taking the time to make things clearer.

It's 4am. Must get some sleep.

Will attempt a proper reply later.

[Xan]

What is the practical side of spiritual beliefs?

I say there's nothing really practical about beliefs, unless you count a false sense of security from ideas you hope are real.

On the other hand there is nothing more practical than spiritual experience... directly knowing the truth of yourself. In knowing this you live better... freer.

Someone asked earlier if "Be in the world not of the world." is a state of separation. Since the human world mostly lives in the illusion of separation it's that world we are no longer 'of' as we experientially discover the oneness of which we are all a part.


Xan

Originally Posted by Xan

What is the practical side of spiritual beliefs?

I say there's nothing really practical about beliefs, unless you count a false sense of security from ideas you hope are real.

On the other hand there is nothing more practical than spiritual experience... directly knowing the truth of yourself. In knowing this you live better... freer.

Someone asked earlier if "Be in the world not of the world." is a state of separation. Since the human world mostly lives in the illusion of separation it's that world we are no longer 'of' as we experientially discover the oneness of which we are all a part.


Xan

Like what you say Xan.

However it was a drive, followed by a belief that started your exploration to practically seek a spiritual experience?

For me I am as far away from feeling spirituality as a dog is to being a cat.
Having said that i have a fire burning within that "knows" unity is reality, that knows oneness is life. I could decide to dissolve all beliefs and see things for what they really are, but the truth is I dont trust my egoistic nature to give me an accurate assessment, its to crafty for me. So I have a goal, and from this goal I assess what I directly sense - feel and think and see to what extent it matches the goal.

Kinda like a baby knows it wants to stand on two legs and walk and all its efforts are geared towards this. Later on it discovers the advantages of being taller, but from its original vantage point of being bummed to earth, it had know idea what was to come. meaning we are always in a state where what we have already attained is below are next state of attainment, and I believe this cannot be grasped through the inner journey of knowing yourself, as i have siad before it is like trying to pull yourself out of a whole by your own hair.

This is where beliefs come in. The egoistic nature has to have a reward or otherwise it wont do a thing, its like a Donkey in this respect.
For example say a person believes spirituality to being able to feel oneness with all, serenity, a deep abiding peace and connection with all things, so for sure if you happen to be doing something and sense this, then you are going to believe you've hit on spirituality ......... And hey maybe you have, who am I to say you haven't. But for me spirituality (in my present state) is the elusive eel, as lao tzu says 'the Tao which can be named isn't the Tao'.

In fact lao tzu goes on further to say 'he who knows, doesn't know' etc.

But then what would he know he was just an old dude hanging out it ancient China (lol)

Anyways it feels kinda 'light' talking with ya, which i appreciate.

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

Like what you say Xan.

However it was a drive, followed by a belief that started your exploration to practically seek a spiritual experience?

For me I am as far away from feeling spirituality as a dog is to being a cat.
Having said that i have a fire burning within that "knows" unity is reality, that knows oneness is life. I could decide to dissolve all beliefs and see things for what they really are, but the truth is I dont trust my egoistic nature to give me an accurate assessment, its to crafty for me. So I have a goal, and from this goal I assess what I directly sense - feel and think and see to what extent it matches the goal.

Kinda like a baby knows it wants to stand on two legs and walk and all its efforts are geared towards this. Later on it discovers the advantages of being taller, but from its original vantage point of being bummed to earth, it had know idea what was to come. meaning we are always in a state where what we have already attained is below are next state of attainment, and I believe this cannot be grasped through the inner journey of knowing yourself, as i have siad before it is like trying to pull yourself out of a whole by your own hair.

This is where beliefs come in. The egoistic nature has to have a reward or otherwise it wont do a thing, its like a Donkey in this respect.
For example say a person believes spirituality to being able to feel oneness with all, serenity, a deep abiding peace and connection with all things, so for sure if you happen to be doing something and sense this, then you are going to believe you've hit on spirituality ......... And hey maybe you have, who am I to say you haven't. But for me spirituality (in my present state) is the elusive eel, as lao tzu says 'the Tao which can be named isn't the Tao'.

In fact lao tzu goes on further to say 'he who knows, doesn't know' etc.

But then what would he know he was just an old dude hanging out it ancient China (lol)

Anyways it feels kinda 'light' talking with ya, which i appreciate.

Paul, unless you have taken the path of self-definition, i.e. looking at yourself in the mirror and then looking to see what and who you really are, to any significant depth, then you're not in a position to judge the practice. Taking a belief system and running with it is not the best way to counteract ego, because ego had a hand in choosing the belief system. It was a belief system comfortable enough for your ego to accept it. If you're really wanting to combat ego, I've found the best thing is to shine a light on the sucker and see what he's doing and why. The ego you fear having is the ego that hates being looked at, so your not wanting to look at it just might be it speaking its intention to continue its operation with you unaware of it.

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

Hi Greenslade, nice to meet you.
The last part of your post baffles me a bit. And to me contains some of the mis-interpreted aspects of spirituality that become so confusing. Or to put it another way (lol), I am confused.

Nice to meet you to, Paul.

For me there is no confusion, no 'your perspective vs mine'. What I see in your words is a reflection of my own beliefs, pretty much. All of our beliefs, all of our perspectives. None of them wrong but simply different, each one right for us. If we are Spirit on a human Journey are we not already in Spirituality? This world will not cease to be if we enter into it but it exists because of it. I've heard said that this dimension was created solely for our Spirit to interact the way that it does and this is the only place it can happen. I'm not sure if that is true or not but I can see reason behind it.

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

having said all that, I ask these questions:

So what is spirituality?

Whatever you believe it to be

Originally Posted by PaulChapmanTasmania

What is the practical side of spiritual beliefs?

Look around you. Look inside yourself. Our beliefs are reflected out into the Universe, in how we act and interact with people. 'I will not punch that person's lights out for getting on my nerves because I'm Spiritual, I'll just smile like a fruitcake and watch them run away'. If we are here to learn lessons, gain knowledge, experience, find our True Self, Ascend.... Does that not count as practical?

Sitting bashing away at a keyboard on these forums is practical Spirituality.

Originally Posted by Topology

Paul, unless you have taken the path of self-definition, i.e. looking at yourself in the mirror and then looking to see what and who you really are, to any significant depth, then you're not in a position to judge the practice. Taking a belief system and running with it is not the best way to counteract ego, because ego had a hand in choosing the belief system. It was a belief system comfortable enough for your ego to accept it. If you're really wanting to combat ego, I've found the best thing is to shine a light on the sucker and see what he's doing and why. The ego you fear having is the ego that hates being looked at, so your not wanting to look at it just might be it speaking its intention to continue its operation with you unaware of it.

great to hear from you again Topology, I missed you.

Paul, unless you have taken the path of self-definition, i.e. looking at yourself in the mirror and then looking to see what and who you really are, to any significant depth, then you're not in a position to judge the practice. - What do you think you are defining and with what tools? The senses, mind and heart function under the dominion of the ego, and here on in, ego means "I WANT".

Taking a belief system and running with it is not the best way to counteract ego, because ego had a hand in choosing the belief system. Can you counteract ego? and if you can, Why would you wish to lose one of the most important tools you have been given?

If you're really wanting to combat ego, I've found the best thing is to shine a light on the sucker and see what he's doing and why. - What did you discover?

The ego you fear having is the ego that hates being looked at, so your not wanting to look at it just might be it speaking its intention to continue its operation with you unaware of it. -Fear is inappropriately described here. It describes the ego in a form of dominion, instead of the ego in a form of assistance, and as i said before the ego will work 24/7 if there is a reward.
The fear I yearn for is that I will not be able to be in constant connection. Each step and process is to reveal the true nature of the ego.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Nice to meet you to, Paul.

For me there is no confusion, no 'your perspective vs mine'. What I see in your words is a reflection of my own beliefs, pretty much.
This is the way of perception.

All of our beliefs, all of our perspectives. None of them wrong but simply different, each one right for us. As you say there is no wrong, does this belief encompass all expressions of perspectives such as murder?

If we are Spirit on a human Journey are we not already in Spirituality? From the perspective of what exists, yes all life is in spirituality. From the perspective of what does not exist, no we are not in spirituality.
Just because we are in human form does not mean that there is what you term spirit. Humanity generally operates from its animalistic instincts, these are in opposition to spirituality.
We are entering a time where the spiritual potential in humanity is awakening, hence such forums as this, hence people are asking these questions, hence people are experiencing depression, loss of direction.

This world will not cease to be if we enter into it but it exists because of it. The spiritual root meaning of this "World" is 'self-gain', worlds are basically states of consciousness, if we live in spirituality, we live in mutual gain, meaning the needs of others comes before your own; this is a different world, and the perception of the world you now see will no longer exist

I've heard said that this dimension was created solely for our Spirit to interact the way that it does and this is the only place it can happen. I'm not sure if that is true or not but I can see reason behind it. This is a really cool statement and deserves a thread of its own, within this is the answer. Would you like to share your reasoning?


Whatever you believe it to be ????????


Look around you. Look inside yourself. Our beliefs are reflected out into the Universe, in how we act and interact with people. 'I will not punch that person's lights out for getting on my nerves because I'm Spiritual, I'll just smile like a fruitcake and watch them run away'. If we are here to learn lessons, gain knowledge, experience, find our True Self, Ascend.... Does that not count as practical?

Sitting bashing away at a keyboard on these forums is practical Spirituality.

What I see in your words is a reflection of my own beliefs

Everything you see outside of yourself is YOUR projection, what seems to you as another person, your 'neighbour' is actually your own desire; it is outside of you in order to give you the opportunity to accept it as being corrected.
There is a great common desire that is entirely aimed at what Kabbalists call Bestowal, and then there is you, the receiver, a fragment of this collective desire.
The common desire is 'Spirituality', the individual desire is in a closed system. If the individual wishes to enter into the transition to enter spirituality then he has to make all the parts which it experiences as external as a part of him.
Everything outside of the individual is already corrected, it is the perception of the indivdual that has the opportunity to change by feeling the desires and needs of others.
This requires the individual to restrict his egoism in order that he doesn't demand more than his physical body requires.
If we were to truly perform this restriction the world would not tolerate hunger, homelessness, lonliness for any individual for one second longer. The quibble about whether a persons perspective is 'right or wrong' is only relevent in this context.

Our beliefs are reflected out into the Universe, I would say projected in how we act and interact with people. This is the key 'I will not punch that person's lights out for getting on my nerves because I'm Spiritual, I'll just smile like a fruitcake and watch them run away'. What if you were the person who punched anothers lights out? If we believe spirituality to be non-violent, and we have an investment in spirituality, then we will act non-violently, however the motivation for this will be egoisitc. If however we feel violence towards another and on top of this feeling we nullify the need to act violently with the understanding that all externally is corrected and it is a part within me that requires correction, then the act of violence or non-violence is of no consequence.

Everything external is in perfection, where we see imperfection, the flaw is within us, and this requires correcting internally so that we may be graced with a new perspective. In this way, bit by bit we begin to make the whole world part of us.

Here we have the meaning of the phrase "Love thy friend as thy self", they become you, the same form.
The step towards reaching this state is "Do not do unto another that which you would not have done to yourself".

[Silver]

Ok. I double dare all of you to make all your statements without the use of the word ego.

Originally Posted by Silvergirl

Ok. I double dare all of you to make all your statements without the use of the word ego.

Why?

Could you explain your purpose?

Can we just play with the ego some more? Let me tell you how I view mine and then you can tell me where I might be going wrong - or right.

There seems to have been a process of maybe three steps so far. Step one, the ego was the bossy, pushy parent. Step two, it became a demanding child. Step three, I began to recognise the ego as the demanding child and gave it a good talking to. The result looks like a tamed ego.

I used to think working to let go of the ego was what I was supposed to do in order to be more selfless but I don’t know if that is possible or even necessary.

Or maybe it’s a simple case of back to the drawing board.