Self - open discussion

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by sound

There is lots of give and take .. and that seems to encourage some sort of crazy balance of perspectives ... I am sure most people see the exchanges that take place as part of an incredibly enriching process and not at all as the finished product ... I do ... although i cant always capture the learning in each and every post i know it exists for at least one other person, even if it is purely for the poster ...

Yes, I kind of see it as a constant process of adjustment and refinement, not always comfortable, but cool at the same time. We have all shared a lot together in the last year, and some of you guys have been on here a lot longer than that!

Originally Posted by sound

I think what you have expressed here can be extended on with (yet another quote) by Seth Tzu ... I am not sure if this sits well with you however i see a distinct connection ...

At certain depths of sleep, however, the soul’s perception operates relatively unhampered. You drink, so to speak, from the pure well of perception. You communicate with the depths of your own being, and the source of your creativity. These experiences, not being translated physically, do not remain in the morning. You do not remember them as dreams. Dreams, however, may later the same evening be formed from the information gained during what I will call the depth experience.

Hi Kate: Yes, the same notion with different words.. and, there are experiences beyond the ability of our 'integrated state's' (fully awake) ability to comprehend, so as to remain disguised as 'deep sleep'.. sleep is the opportunity for 'that' which is 'us' to experience its Wholeness, aspects of which we have no understanding from the perspective of the mind's 'structure'.. Consciousness is constant, awareness comes and goes..

Be well..

[sound]

Hmm yes ... I found it quite rejuvenating just reading those words of yours Tzu lol ... who needs sleep ... and you know sometimes we wake up feeling so refreshed and maybe that is why ... maybe sometimes we truly are drinking from the pure well of perception ... and that would be very nourishing, memory or no memory ...

[andrew g]

I would say that Consciousness is constant, as is Spirit (they are the same thing). But what is experienced by Consciousness and Spirit is both formless awareness and form material, both of which are also constants and go hand in hand. It is the formless awareness and form material that constitutes the experience itself. In this sense, although formless awareness could be said to be prior to form, it is Consciousness that is fundamental. Basically, the form and formless awareness are always being experienced.

Another word for Consciousness and Spirit might also be Existence.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Consciousness is constant, awareness comes and goes..

Be well..

See that actually corosponds to the experience that sometimes there is awareness and sometimes there is not.

Self concsiousness can cease while thoughts continue, but when thought stops awareness 'goes away', and prior to awareness there IS... but thought is requisite for the awareness... and awareness is how it realizes IT IS.

[sound]

Originally Posted by andrew g

Yes, I kind of see it as a constant process of adjustment and refinement, not always comfortable, but cool at the same time. We have all shared a lot together in the last year, and some of you guys have been on here a lot longer than that!

Yes ... as one dimensional as this form of communication appears to be, it certainly has its own 'form' lol ... and ... in relation to lengthy memberships ... it is not so much the amount of time spent together but the quality of that sharing ...

[Lazarus72]

Originally Posted by Gem

In deep sleep I am entirely unaware. Do some remain aware during their deepest sleep?

I think this is a good question and it was the one that popped up in my mind shortly after my comment of being in full agreement. ther's always more to it, hehe..... or less as the case may be.

I kinda picture awareness as the more subtle basis of consciousness, but am prepared to hold my hands up and say, beyond awareness I'm just not sure. It's a grey area for me at the moment, a work in progress.


Maybe it's emptiness or the emptiness of inherent existence. Maybe its oblivion.

I think I've seen it described as that from which spirit draws it's strength, recharges as it were, and I kinda see spirit as collective consciousness/ awareness. Maybe it's 'isnotness', lol, maybe it's source, maybe it's peace.

It's a tricky one to grasp for sure.

[Lazarus72]

Originally Posted by Gem

See that actually corosponds to the experience that sometimes there is awareness and sometimes there is not.

Self concsiousness can cease while thoughts continue, but when thought stops awareness 'goes away', and prior to awareness there IS... but thought is requisite for the awareness... and awareness is how it realizes IT IS.

I kinda see this the other way round.

when I picture it I use the analogy of vibrations.

First there is just emptiness, kinda infinite and eternal, cant be grasped by mind. That from which all arises in a sense.

Then there is awareness at the shortest wavelength.

Then there is consciousness at a longer wavelength.

So awareness trancends (or is more subtle than) conciousness, and emptiness transcends awareness and is dimensionless.

When I awake from 'dreamless deep sleep' (emptiness or nothingness), first I become aware then I become conscious, and vice versa.

Doesn't make much sense I know, but then w'ere trying to conceptualise that which is definitively beyond thought perhaps.

Maybe this is one of the imponderables referred to in Buddhism. That thought cannot grasp its basis, kinda like asking the arm to decribe the person.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Hi Kate: Yes, the same notion with different words.. and, there are experiences beyond the ability of our 'integrated state's' (fully awake) ability to comprehend, so as to remain disguised as 'deep sleep'.. sleep is the opportunity for 'that' which is 'us' to experience its Wholeness, aspects of which we have no understanding from the perspective of the mind's 'structure'.. Consciousness is constant, awareness comes and goes..

Be well..

I very much like this...and agree with you, Sound, God-Like, Andrew...(pardon if forgetting anyone) and all who note that our eternal presence or consciousness is always aware and experiencing...though our waking consciousness seems "aware" of just the barest surface of what we are, do and experience whilst in any phase of sleep. We are not much better at this whilst awake...

I often have some recollections during sleep...some lucid, some semi-lucid, some with or without images...much I am aware of immediately forgetting...and much more that surely I never remember. Healing work is typically among the most lucid.

We need more words for "consciousness" and "aware", don't we? We are getting double & triple duty out of them at present, LOL...suppose that's a good sign Tzu! We as a collective are becoming aware (that word again) of the need to distinguish between differest aspects of consciousness...and to distinguish between how awareness is different for the different types of consciousness.

I wonder if there are clear Buddhist terms for some of these that we could "apprehend"

Peace & blessings 2all,
7L

On Awareness

"Since it is awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is awareness in every state of consciousness.
Therefore, the very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement in awareness." (Nisargadatta)

"All awareness---awareness emptiness
Way beyond what thought can know
In the reaches of awareness emptiness
Let awareness go -oh, where no mind goes."
(Khenpo Tsultrim Rinpoche)

"Between pure Awareness and Awareness reflected as consciousness there is a gap which the mind cannot cross.
The reflection of the sun in a drop of dew is not the sun itself." (Ramesh Balsekar)

"You are the unchangeable Awareness in which all activity takes place." (Papaji)

"If you trust me, believe when I tell you that you are the pure awareness that illumines consciousness and its infinite content." (Nisargadatta)

"Enlightement is the simple and direct realization of not being your body-mind but the empty Awareness whose action is living through and as all form." (Caterina Maggi)

"All of this is really filled by you and strung out in you, for what you consist of is pure awareness -- so don't be small-minded." (Ashtavakra Gita)