NDE Event

Actually there are quite a few cases of people who've returned from being clinically dead. People who wake up in the morgue for example. I think you'll find if you do the research,there's quite a body of evidence out there of people who, while supposedly dead (or in a coma, or not capable of hearing - there have been cases where the heart was outside the body, the brain frozen so they could operate - and the patient still heard and saw everything that happened) - they could actually recount the details of what they couldn't possibly have known. But it's not just NDE's or OBE's - it's the entire body of consciousness research that you're not aware of - that pioneered by Gary Schwartz Ph.D. at Harvard and Yale, the research that others have done in this field. So let's start with the premise that no one has been able to define, explain or understand consciousness from a scientific point of view. Full stop. So until someone starts to examine what consciousness is, you don't have the capacity to understand what a person having a near death experience is having.. especially when the details are identical in many cases - to what others have experienced through OBE's, PLR's and LBL's. Identical.

So until someone starts to examine what consciousness is, you don't have the capacity to understand what a person having a near death experience is having.. especially when the details are identical in many cases - to what others have experienced through OBE's, PLR's and LBL's. Identical.

I have had one and to me it was nothing but traumatic lucid dreaming with the illusion of separation from the body. You keep saying to me that many cases are identical but have you ever thought about the fact that we have similar brains and the fact that there are similarities between different cultures scattered all over the world (as Carl Jung once observed)? At the end of the day, we are all still human and bound to have similar experiences - after all, similar biological mechanism - same species!!

They have been researching consciousness already and so far it seems very likely that it arises from the complexity of physical matter. It won't be long until they create a thinking robot. You need to focus on RELIABLE research. You gotta remember that we are nothing but a conglomerate of cells. Just like atoms, the same energy that make up wood and metal (believe it of not but at a small scale they are the same), they also make up what is conscious and what isn't - what is dead or alive - animate/inanimate. How vibrating atoms and molecules are rearranged and the relationships within systems on planck and macro scales make all the difference. There is no magic, my friend.

It is astonishing how you are so dismissive of the overwhelming evidence from brain damage and split-brain research. A spirit in Descartes' dualistic view doesn't hold any water. Likewise, a "Cartesian theatre" does not even begin to explain consciousness as we are forced to question what is going on inside the head of a homunculus and if there is another theatre with another homunculus ad infinitum, then consciousness has not been explained.

I think you should have a look at books about theoretical models of how mind arises from matter and the growing evidence. I have faith that we will figure it all out pretty soon. I simply don't bother with the theory of the existence of a human soul because there is no evidence for it whatsoever.

By the way, don't get me started on coincidence, confirmation bias and fraud. The fact that so many people can lie has led me to be cautious and sceptical. You can't blame me. I think it's a healthy way of looking at things. I'm sorry, but, if you want, we can agree to disagree.

To me, NDE's are probably caused by low blood pressure from the trauma. REM bursts manifest and it is probably a natural mechanism to protect consciousness from what would have been unbearable pain. It is possible that the sense of self is thrust into a dream world for one reason or another.

I think that these experiences will arise at the time of death, but, I believe they will be your last dreams. Sure, they will be intense, lucid, you will feel alive and well, you might see Jesus or the Buddha (depending on your inclinations) and your loved ones. But all of this is nothing but your brain cushioning you as you move closer to your final destination: the cessation of being.

Have you seen Jacob's Ladder and Waking Life? I believe something like that is likely to happen. Beyond such experiences lies the real death threshold. This will be your liberation from any sort of experience.

[Xan]

...let's start with the premise that no one has been able to define, explain or understand consciousness from a scientific point of view. Full stop. So until someone starts to examine what consciousness is, you don't have the capacity to understand what a person having a near death experience is having..

Indeed. A little humility about how little we really know is a good thing.


Xan

Agreed Xan. Tip of the iceberg stuff. I appreciate your comments Summerland, as it shows you're actively pursuing knowledge, so it's just a matter of what you will or won't let through. I'm not dismissive of any train of thought, or line of research - it's just not been my focus. I'm aware of the research into split brains, into brain activity, into multiple personality disorder and all manner of psychological or physiological problems with regard to experience. Suffice to say one's own experience isn't enough to make a conclusion about events - that's how the majority of religious books are written, in my opinion. "I had this apotheosis and saw God" and then the book is written. For me it's not enough that I had a spiritual vision - or dream - it requires more than one, or experiments that can be replicated, or even reported for us to be able examine them. And there's really no point into going into my research here <snip> I was able to bring together lots of research, lots of scientific endeavors and studies, and put them into one place to read them.

But if we're going to discuss skepticism - I agree, skepticism is sorely lacking in most spiritual forums. It's either in for a penny, in for a pound or it's a blockade of negativity. There has to be some middle ground for discussion. In my research, I began as a skeptic, went to film a documentary that would prove or disprove the work of Michael Newton. I wasn't going to take on the entire new age world of personal reporting - I thought by examining one man's work who claimed that thousands of people said the same things under hypnosis would allow me the opportunity to examine that evidence.

And I'm sorry to say that I only confirmed his evidence. I started to take random folks from different walks of life - from different countries, religions, backgrounds, skeptics, agnostics, atheists - it didn't matter. They all had THE SAME EXPERIENCE saw the same things, recounted the same basic journey into the Afterlife, did not matter who the therapist was. And I don't mean the same Jungian imagery - everyone's journey is specific to their own point of view - but what happens there, the chapter headings so to speak, are identical.

One case; Oxford professor did a session in London where he saw a woman he knows from this lifetime as his soul mate from a previous lifetime, one where he was a banker in Boston. I arranged, without the knowledge of the therapist in either case, for this woman to have a past life review in NYC. She knew nothing of this man's past life regression. She had the identical past life memory of being married to him in Boston in the 1800's. That's two different people, two different therapists who didn't know each other, having the same past life memory of their life together.

My son's first sentence to me was "I was a monk in Nepal." I thought he was kidding. Then when I asked him a year later "Did you know daddy from before?" And when he nodded I asked "where did you meet me?" He said "Tibet." He was 3. I asked him where. He said "On the path." Then I remembered when I was on Mt. Kailash with Robt. Thurman in Western Tibet making a doc, I was told I could make a wish and it would come true. Out of my mouth came "I want a son." I had no clue I was going to say it - and already had a daughter. But now here was my son telling me he found me in Tibet. I said "Was it on Kailash?" He said no. I asked if it was Kangra. He said "Yes, it was on kangra." Kangra is the name of the path where I made the wish in Tibetan. But I supplied the word. (He also had a five year old friend come over one day and my wife overheard him as he pointed to a Tibetan script and said "I used to speak that language, but I don't anymore.")

Later while working on "Salt" he was with his mom and sister staying at a sublet in NYC. He found two books in the sublet's library and threw one in the trash. My wife said "why did you throw that book in the trash?" He said "it's worthless. This is the important one" and held up Thurman's "Circling the Sacred Mountain." (I had no idea the house had a copy and had never discussed Kailash with my son) He flipped it open to a picture where I made the wish and said "That's where I found daddy."

He was four. A few months ago, we were in a Tibet shop in LA and he disappeared. My wife found him in the back room doing full prostrations - something he's never seen before. He said to her "Mom, you need to meditate more and this is how you do it."

I could go on and on - that's just one personal story. There was the NYPD detective on "Salt" who told me he was being haunted by a ghost and now his daughter claimed to be born in Australia. I asked him about the ghost - he said his daughter saw someone dressed as a cop in the kitchen every morning - and finally the detective pulled out a picture of his partner who died two years before she was born. She said "that's him but he's younger now." I explained that we as spirits present ourselves as we most liked our physique - and it wasn't so bad he was hanging around keeping an eye on him, was it? He agreed. But as to Australia I said "when kids make stories, the details are all over the place - take out a map of Australia and ask her "Where?"

He came in the next day, flabbergasted that she'd pointed out Perth, and how she was a farmer there and the whole family had died in a drought. But mostly she was just happy that her dad didn't dismiss her story, he asked questions.

Which is all any of us can do with this information. Just ask questions instead of telling folks what they should or shouldn't think. That's where the answers lie. Not in what you think you've known your whole life, but in what new information can lead you to. We have all chosen our lives, we have all chosen our parents, we have all chosen to be here in this forum - it may not be apparent on the surface, but it's there.

<snip>

So let's end where we began - science hasn't been able to tell us what consciousness is - and to my mind neither has religion - what I'm talking about and examining is an entirely new field altogether - beyond what religion has been able to tell us about the Afterlife (although many have had experiences there and come back to found a religion based on them), and its beyond what science has posited is going on (with the added detail that some of what people are saying during these sessions matches up with quantum theory). Consciousness is the key to understanding the process.

The iceberg may be huge, but that doesn't mean we can't climb aboard and start to dig around and see what we can find.

Edited by SF Staff

My son, when he was about three, told me he used to be an old man from China. He said that I was his mother and I thank God/the Universe everyday that I am blessed to be his mother again. We have such an old soul connection it's uncanny.

When I had my NDE I had a flash of my mother and what I thought at the time was my baby sister but now believe was my son. My purpose besides helping people was to move across the country, meet my husband and have our son, who has such amazing things in store for him.

BTW when I had my NDE I was only eight and not at all raised in a religious household. I did not go to church nor saw pictures of Jesus hanging in my home. Yet, I did see Him and also saw the Book of Life..where did that come from? I didn't learn anything about the Book of Life until the age of fourteen, when after telling my mother of the experience also told my friends father, who was a pastor.

No evidence for a human soul? Wow! I respect how you feel Summerlander but after watching the Wizard of Oz I don't believe in a Tin Man or a Scarecrow without a brain.

I don't doubt that these experiences are real for you, guys. And by no means am I saying that there is no afterlife. Actually, I suspect that a somewhat different afterlife is the case - but these are my suspicions, not gospel. What I propose could still be wrong.

I apologize, Summerlander, for coming off snarky. That was really was/is not my intent and I respect your beliefs and how you feel. Please accept my apology.

Hi Better Known as Jo... I can't speak to your experience because it was unique to you, but I can tell you about other people's experiences in this arena. I'm sure you're aware of the young boy who had an NDE and believed he saw Jesus - and his father wrote a best selling book about it.

I can tell you that with regard to the research I've been studying and filming, this is a pretty common experience with regard to NDE's or sometimes OBE's - we find ourselves in a misty place, and out of the mist comes a religious figure - sometimes dressed in white, sometimes looking just like Jesus or other figures in religious history. For those that have those experiences they are profound, especially when accompanied by the admonition "It's not your time yet." There's a certain amount of never fearing death again that comes with those kinds of visceral experiences.

However, I can tell you that the research Michael Newton has done in this arena - 7000 people under deep hypnosis over 30 years - has a slightly different understanding of these experiences. Michael Newton was a skeptic when he began his research - not believing in past life regression until a client spontaneously went into one, and Newton, disbelieving, grilled him for details, and then confirmed this man's account with the British War office that there was a soldier who died in WWI with the same details. So Newton approached this field with the questions of a skeptic, which is what helps make his research so valuable.

In the cases where a client steps into the life between lives realms and sees a religious figure, Newton would ask for a detailed description - and after examining what this person was saying and presenting, the client would eventually see that this was his spirit guide presenting him or herself as a religious figure to make the experience less startling. The mental process would be "Oh, Jesus, or Buddha or Mohammed is coming to greet me" and with further examination the client would discover their spirit guide standing in front of them.

One case was with a minister who in his sessions suddenly began to scream that Satan had appeared and was coming for him. Newton spent some time calming his spirit, and then asked "What kind of clothes is he wearing?" And when the client looked further, saw that Satan was wearing boots. It was at that point he realized it was his spirit guide pretending to be Satan - to show the Minister how all the fear he had preached in his lifetime had led him off the path, and into a world of power and fear mongering.

Between lives we are energy, and as such can present ourselves as we want the other person to see us. In my own case, during my first LBL session, I was asked at one point what the color of my father's energy was - and as he stood in front of me, about the age of 40, he dissolved in front of my eyes into a glowing golden energy - when the conversation started again, he reappeared as dad. It wasn't that he was shape shifting - it was my own focus that allowed me to see the different energy presented.

So - in respect of your journey - and again, this is my interpretation of what you saw in relation to what I've been researching, only observing that in the other cases I've examined where people thought they saw a religious icon (Mother Theresa, Buddha, Martin Luther King) when they examined the person more closely - and began to answer questions or pose questions to the individual - the person revealed themselves as someone much closer - a member of their soul group perhaps, or as mentioned, a person's spirit or eternal guide.

As to the Book of Life - it's also a common experience in this research; in Asia, they refer to it as the "Akashic record," I've heard terms like "life library" and "past life pavilion." I've recently filmed a woman in her 40's, a skeptic who agreed to do a session to see where it led, found herself in the "library of souls" where people can view all of their past lives - and in some cases likely outcomes of future ones. (if you've seen "Defending Your Life" the hilarious Albert Brooks movie, it's a fairly close example of what these folks are saying). In the book "My Life After Life" written by Galen Stoller and his father Ken (Galen died a few years ago, and is channeling his observations of where he is through his father and a psychic - it's amazing reading, and the father, a renowned Pediatrician had never heard of Newton's research) describes this life library as a place where we can see our lives in a golden bowl.

I must add that to each person having this experience it's slightly different - what you might call the Book of Life, or seen as a book - others see library portfolios, in some cases holographic screens where lifetimes can be observed and actually stepped into - the term "Library" is just one to refer to this common experience that is unique to each individual <snip>

You've been gifted with a unique experience, and if you research it a bit you'll find other individuals like yourself who've reported these events in life between life sessions.

Hi and thanks for your reply, RichMartini. I do not have a fear of death as I feel the love from the light is always with me and it comforts me. I've always felt that my purpose here is to learn and observe and take the information back with me to share...with whom, I'm not sure.

Did Michael Newton do hypnosis on children? I did see what I thought was Jesus but there were other Beings of Light in the room with us. I didn't tell anyone about what I experienced because at that age I had no idea what it was. Also, my memory was gone..retrograde amnesia..and I had no connection to family or things.

I am interested in your point of view about soul groups and will look into this further. My son has been with me other lives but not always in this mother/son dynamic but I hadn't thought that it could extend to other people outside of my family.

I haven't done much research into other individuals mainly from an experience I had. When I was in college 20 years ago there was a woman...her name escapes me...that was on Oprah discussing her NDE and saying that Jesus spoke through her. I had such a negative reaction from it that I turned it off. I felt that she was a fraud and a deceiver of people and I hadn't even listened to more than three minutes of the show.

About a month later she came to town and I went with some girlfriends to her session/show. Again, as soon as she came on stage I felt sick and did not believe anything she said. I left early and never spoke to anyone about it as I was young and didn't understand the reaction myself.

But, you've inspired me to look into it again. I, myself, was a skeptic for many years and recently accepted and embraced what happened to me and now my life makes complete sense. Thank you and what have you been filming? Is there something I can watch or are you still working on it?

Hi Jo, glad you're in exploration mode. Newton was a practicing psychologist for 50 years, he's now retired. As such his clients were usually older, however he had some younger ones which he reports in his books (first was "Journey of Souls") He does say that he had a harder time doing hypnosis with younger folks, as if they weren't supposed to know or access this information just yet.

If you're curious about children and past lives, I'd check out Carol Bowman's "Children's Past Lives" - she's also a trained therapist, and trained with Newton's institute in life between life sessions. I started a documentary about the topic five years ago <snip>.

I think if you google reincarnation or past life regression, there are a couple of shows you can watch on youtube, I recommend the BBC ones and the ABC show about the young boy who remembered his life during World War II - they're easy to watch, and touch upon the concept - but Newton did thousands of interviews during his career, and my book is following up his research with interviews of him and people he's trained, as well as past life regressions and life between life sessions. Good luck!

Edited by SF Staff