Free-Will, Choice, and Pre-Destination...

Poppies: "... both sashwah and DASA say that free-will is limited.... but is it limited by whoever/whatever 'created' us (who/whatever we believe in) or is it limited by the limitations that humans in their human-ness put upon it....?"

I'd say neither - It's limited because we are not God. :-)

Only Krishna can have 100% free-will and choice to do anything He pleases. We have independence to a degree (we can make decisions etc...), but the infinitesimal can never be as free as the infinite. I think what you're asking regarding limitation is slightly different to the question of pure free-will? I'd totally agree that many of us limit ourselves by our fears and beliefs etc... but the nature of the soul is beyond such conditioning. Even then I'd say we are still to some degree limited. (for example, I cannot suddenly become God, therefore I do not have 100% free-will).

'Jivera swarupa haya krishna-nitya dasa' - The inherent nature of the soul is to act as an eternal servant of the Supreme Lord.

Originally Posted by DASA

I'd say neither - It's limited because we are not God. :-)

i agree with this - as i see it in our original form as pure souls we are like God and have unlimited free will - by our actions on Earth in a body we limit our own freedom - we become ever-more constricted by the consequences of our prior actions and conditioning.

Originally Posted by howiemac

i agree with this - as i see it in our original form as pure souls we are like God and have unlimited free will - by our actions on Earth in a body we limit our own freedom - we become ever-more constricted by the consequences of our prior actions and conditioning.

I read DASA's post earlier and came here to make a suggestion something along the lines of your post Howiemac...

It makes perfect sense to me that we are given absolute free will - it's us that put the restrictions on it... and on each other... [i][b]"which seems like one of the most fundamental

Originally Posted by Poppies

But what if we.... somewhere deep inside us... do have the ability to become God, but our conditioning/beliefs/lack of belief holds us back..........

What if our life's journey is about learning to let go of the restrictions that we and others place upon us....?

Yep; sounds like TRANSCENDENCE to me

Hi Poppies - that question has raised so much debate in India over the past 1500 years or so...

Lord Krishna says in Gita that "only he who is 'my devotee' can understand the mysteries of this great teaching". You can never become God. You are eternally subordinate to God. The perfection of life is to serve Him with love, not to envy His position and try to take it.

For a number of years I followed a path of Yoga which had as it's goal the idea of 'becoming one' with the Supreme, (similar to Buddhist philosophy) but my outlook on this was reversed after coming into contact with the writings of Srila Prabhupada and experimenting with the path of Bhakti-yoga instead.

It is not that there is no truth at all in the idea, but that it distorts the highest truth. In this age there is a great drought. People are starving. The starvation is not so much of the belly, but it is the starvation of the heart. People are lonely, even those who have so much money, so much affluence - everything in the world that they could possibly want. Their hearts are starving, there is no real satisfaction in their lives. Why is this? ananda mayo'bhyasat. 'Every soul is seeking for pleasure' - and the only pleasure that can satisfy the heart is the pleasure of a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His devotees. And that is what we are starving for, and that is what the whole world is starving for.

The idea that we can become one with God destroys the possibility of having a personal relationship with Him, which is what we are really yearning for in our heart. The joy of merging into God's effulgence (temporarily 'becoming one') is said to amount to no-more than the water in a calf's hoofprint in comparison to the vast ocean of joy in realising one's eternal love for the Lord.

Hare Krishna,
Das :-)

Originally Posted by DASA

The idea that we can become one with God destroys the possibility of having a personal relationship with Him, which is what we are really yearning for in our heart. The joy of merging into God's effulgence (temporarily 'becoming one') is said to amount to no-more than the water in a calf's hoofprint in comparison to the vast ocean of joy in realising one's eternal love for the Lord.

spot on Das

We can become God-like but not God. Love for God brings love for the self, which brings love for all. :)

[quote=Space_Man]Yep; sounds like TRANSCENDENCE to me

Originally Posted by howiemac

Love for God brings love for the self, which brings love for all.

Sounds like a cause & effect relationship...no? Yes, there is still the choice to love God, the choice to love self, the choice to love others

Poppies: "DASA I have every respect for your beliefs and I am not arguing against what you believe in... I do, however, see it rather differently.... also, having come from a very restricted religious background, I am really enjoying exploring new ideas...."

Thankyou Poppies - I very much appreciate your approach, and am also getting a lot from this discussion - seeing the unity in diversity :-)

Please forgive if I'm not understanding correctly, but in the first part are you stating it may not be possible for us to be satisfied untill we leave this world at death? Or are you saying that it is the very feeling of 'starving for God' that is the perfection we are looking for? Or something else entirely? I'm trying to pinpoint it down into 'Das language' for my tiny brain.


The second question I think I'm understanding more clearly:

Poppies: "I don't understand why the idea that we can become one with God destroys the possibility of having a personal relationship with Him - wouldn't it be something that we could and (should?) hope/aim for - the goal that we achieve at the end of our lives? "

If we became 'one' with God I couldn't see where is the possibility of having a relationship? I understand 'becoming one' to mean that we loose our individual existence and 'join' with God's consciousenss. For a relationship, or an exchange of love to take place there needs to be two, not one. In Gita Krishna describes that both Himself and ourselves have always existed. There was never a time when we were created, neither will there be a time when we will not exist. We have always been individuals, and will remain to be so.

In this material world our experience of 'enjoyment' or 'ecstacy' often contains an element of one-ness. For example catching a brilliant wave while surfing, or winning the lottery, or scoring a goal in a football world cup final - just for that moment our brain shuts up, we stop worrying about things, and briefly there is a sense of 'being without oneself'. But if we actually analyse these experiences, they are actually no more than a temporary relief from our everyday suffering condition. There is no actual pleasure involved, it's a relief from our worries, our fears, our pain etc... This leads to us then imagining that to be with God, must be something like this. But love of God (bhakti) is not simply a relief from suffering, it is ACTUAL enjoyment (ananda), a positve replacement. An interaction between God and His part & parcel, either in this life, or the next.

I hope this explains the earlier comments are bit more clearly... Any similar / contrasting thoughts?
Your servant .... Das :-)

Originally Posted by DASA

Poppies: "DASA I have every respect for your beliefs and I am not arguing against what you believe in... I do, however, see it rather differently.... also, having come from a very restricted religious background, I am really enjoying exploring new ideas...."

Thankyou Poppies - I very much appreciate your approach, and am also getting a lot from this discussion - seeing the unity in diversity :-)

Believe me... it is sooooo good to be able to explore and question without being accused of 'attacking' someone else's beliefs!!!!

Please forgive if I'm not understanding correctly, but in the first part are you stating it may not be possible for us to be satisfied untill we leave this world at death? Or are you saying that it is the very feeling of 'starving for God' that is the perfection we are looking for? Or something else entirely? I'm trying to pinpoint it down into 'Das language' for my tiny brain.

Sorry... the reference to "starving" came from what you said:

Originally Posted by Poppies

What if, at the end of our lives, we return to our creator (whatever we believe in)... what if that is the "only pleasure that can satisfy the heart"? What if that is "the pleasure of a personal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead"? What if that is what we are "starving for" and what the "whole world is starving for"?

I was trying to tie my reply in with what you'd said..... I don't think I did it very well!!! :? :lol:

Hang on.... I need to try and work out what I was trying to say!!!!! :roll: :lol:

Right...

I think you and I will have to agree to differ on the freewill issue.... For me, Space_Man summed it up perfectly:
[quote]Personally, I