How devoted are you to your beliefs?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by davidsun

One possibility is left out of the picture here, methinks: some who (for some 'reason') stubbornly choose to remain as they presently are - that is, to not learn and grow (to become something 'greater' or 'more') at all - either through conflicts, adversity, etc. or through acceptance, love, etc.


Indeed, it is.

From my treatise:

"To the degree that, as a result of continuing to mentally and emotionally process our personal experiences, we become aware of ( i.e. consciously ‘awaken’ to) the fact that all our lives are (in other words, all Life is) basically coextant, the ‘sense’ we have of our own ‘i’dentity expands to become other-inclusive. And, as we then realize that just focusing on things**by and for the benefit of our ‘own’ selves simply results in our (delusionally!) living in personally ‘i’solating thought-and-feeling ‘bubbles’, we may (logically then) choose to transcend (i.e., rise ‘above’ and evolve ‘beyond’) the limitations of whatever self*ish perceptions and tendencies at**that point, as a result of past personal and social conditioning, continue to ‘govern’ and (so, in effect) ‘imprison’ us, and then more and more ‘freely’ grow to become more and more loving and enjoying of our ‘neighbors’ as*our ‘selves’ (as advocated in Mark*12:31) in ever-widening, more and more Life‑embracing circles, and therefore and thereby (in due course) fully*execute our innate Source-code ‘program’ to maximally experience and express Love and Joy in relationship to and with others. This, instead of just*partially doing so by way of continuing to operate as the same ‘old’ ego‑‘i’dentity configurations focused on reaping and dispensing whatever Love and Joy ‘perks’ we (as a result of prior personal conditioning) happen to at any given point especially value in relation to particular others, for however long we may continue to live (as such☺*that is!)."

That would have to be the longest, single sentence I have ever read!

Unfortunately, due to your lack of grammar and punctuation, I couldn't understand much of it. I sincerely apologise.

...but I understand the whole "Tower of Babel" metaphor.

[Shivani Devi]

So, about transcending the limitations of self-focused, conditioned perceptions and awareness.

Of course you realise that the permutations of such Cosmic transcendence is limitless and infinite and cannot be realised by or contained within the machinations of the finite human mind. So, how far should we GO outside our own "thought bubble" when all we are really doing, is just making our self-ish bubble a bit bigger and NOT really escaping it (aka Moksha)?

Sure, we can "love our neighbour" and do whatever Jesus says, but there is still "me" and there is still "my neighbour that 'I' love", so the Duality is still there. The bubble is made bigger, but we still have not escaped it.

I don't think it is possible to "love everybody unconditionally"....you know, my dear, that I would put the patience of the greatest spiritual person/monk to the test to get them to break their composure and bring out the stuff they have not subconsciously dealt with...it is what I DO and what I was born for. I would have to be the most difficult person to love, so if a spiritual person can do it, they have reached a very high level of growth and awareness and it is how I gauge authenticity.

The degree at which I "ruffle feathers" is the degree to how much work still needs to be done.

For you see, my friend...one cannot say "you should look within yourself FIRST" or "you should introspect to see what your words and actions are saying about YOU" without being self-ish.. isn't it?

This is the biggest dichotomy in spiritual practice.

...and some people will use cognitive models to disagree with another's beliefs, based upon emotional biases like 'disgust', 'distaste', 'abomination', 'disapproval', 'emnity', 'avoidance' etc etc.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

That would have to be the longest, single sentence I have ever read!

Actually, its two sentences. Anyone who truly 'looks' can/will be able to 'see' this.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Unfortunately, due to your lack of grammar and punctuation, I couldn't understand much of it. I sincerely apologise.

You have a different understanding of what 'sincerity' really means than I do, me thinks.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

...but I understand the whole "Tower of Babel" metaphor.

You have a different understanding of what 'understanding' really means than I do, me thinks.

What you say reminds me of:

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Mathew 13) = albeit I am not speaking in/via 'parables' - same phenomenon, nevertheless.

1, Here’s important question to ask: “are these YOUR beliefs or the beliefs of others you have taken?”

2, and “How much do you actually know?”
All to often I observe people claiming thing and talking about things in general which is purely just assumptions acting like it’s truth, yes you do run into a brick wall so to speak if you stop making assumptions but all you have to do is just walk around the side of the wall and carry on metaphorically speaking, I will use the bible as a example here, who here was there when it was written that can say on their life it is true, and not just “yea it’s true just cos i believe it”.
I don’t have time right now to go into more detail unfortunately so it will have to wait but it should give something to think about in the meantime.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by BlackfoxNZ

1, Here’s important question to ask: “are these YOUR beliefs or the beliefs of others you have taken?”

2, and “How much do you actually know?”
All to often I observe people claiming thing and talking about things in general which is purely just assumptions acting like it’s truth, yes you do run into a brick wall so to speak if you stop making assumptions but all you have to do is just walk around the side of the wall and carry on metaphorically speaking, I will use the bible as a example here, who here was there when it was written that can say on their life it is true, and not just “yea it’s true just cos i believe it”.
I don’t have time right now to go into more detail unfortunately so it will have to wait but it should give something to think about in the meantime.

I think that anyone implicitly or explicitly 'claiming' to have 'knowledge' should honestly acknowledge and implicitly or explicitly declare the (presume) 'source' of said 'knowledge' so others may 'evaluate' (the implicit 'power' of) what one says.

Good thought-provocations, Blackfox!

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Actually, its two sentences. Anyone who truly 'looks' can/will be able to 'see' this.


You have a different understanding of what 'sincerity' really means than I do, me thinks.


You have a different understanding of what 'understanding' really means than I do, me thinks.

What you say reminds me of:

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Mathew 13) = albeit I am not speaking in/via 'parables' - same phenomenon, nevertheless.

You presumeth to know what I "understand" methinks, but we have been through this many times before, with you "believing" things about me which are only true from your perspective and perception, but are not true from mine...you know, where it really matters in any discussion relating to myself and who actually knows me best.

Like I said before, many things can be misunderstood through the lens of emotional bias (see post above).

Oh, so it is two sentences then..it was difficult to see one full stop in that huge wall of text there, and I won't apologise for being incorrect, seeing as how you have problems with me being honest and admitting fault...I wonder why?

Then again, I could have been commenting in general, rather than specifically from a different point of view, even had I noticed there was one full stop in there.

I am done.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

You presumeth to know what I "understand" methinks, but we have been through this many times before, with you "believing" things about me which are only true from your perspective and perception, but are not true from mine...you know, where it really matters in any discussion relating to myself and who actually knows me best.

Like I said before, many things can be misunderstood through the lens of emotional bias (see post above).

Oh, so it is two sentences then..it was difficult to see one full stop in that huge wall of text there, and I won't apologise for being incorrect, seeing as how you have problems with me being honest and admitting fault...I wonder why?

Then again, I could have been commenting in general, rather than specifically from a different point of view, even had I noticed there was one full stop in there.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I am done.

So you say.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by ketzer

People often become rather devoted to their beliefs and will defend them at all costs. When one holds a belief, it is not a bad thing to mount a defence of it when attacked, as it can help to show you just how well you understand what it is you believe. But there are also the faith warriors who will mount a defence with any seemingly absurd line of reasoning they can muster. They will conjure up what they call scientific proof that doesn't even begin to pass muster with the scientific method, and they will engage in extreme logical fallacy while accusing others of doing the same thing.

Just how devoted to our beliefs should we be and how much interest should we have in questioning and defending our beliefs, to our selves, or others?

Do you think you and/or others should have some basis for what they believe, or is it pretty much anything goes, we can believe whatever we want no matter what science or facts may indicate?

Why is it, and/or how is it, that some people can become so devoted to beliefs that to the rest of us seem so patently ridiculous against the "facts" that we generally seem to agree on? Answers with a psychological bent get extra Karma points on this last one.

Hi ketzer,

Belief is in the mind, while faith comes from a deeper place.
So called "facts" are often superficial appearance and hence more misleading; they originate in separative and objective cognition and reason.

Beliefs are often the mental constructs of faith. Yet, being devoted and dedicated to one's belief is the best way to experience and realize the purpose and consequence of those beliefs...experience, realize, examine, re-orient, and move on. That's "the way".

At the same time, there is really no need to "defend" one's beliefs, any more than there is no need to challenge another's beliefs. Spirituality necessarily involves a greater and increasing subjectivity of experience. On the intellectual plane we can have these discussions which can be somewhat helpful or even inspiring in seeing other perspectives, but ultimately we can't really judge, limit, alter - or even understand another's individual path, because we have our own, and that is the point.

If you aren't devoted to your beliefs, what can you do or accomplish? Life would become an indeterminant wafting of incessant doubt, uncertainty, denial, confusion, and frustration. Oops - - just described the common mental affliction: "I don't have any beliefs"...a belief in itself (unexamined) and also significantly therefore, a conceit of unconscious self-deception.

This is why so many are stuck in a vicious circle: fear of devotion and consecration - the inverse of your OP quandary.
They travel around the circumference looking into the centre but don't jump in. They think if they commit, its going to be a static one-dimensional prison; an imagined prejudicial presumption which supervenes more productive and progressive experience. That's also a belief of the mind and a false one. Why?

Because Spirit is infinite and immanent.
And importantly, Spirit is compassionately responsive and wants your conscious participation.

Devotion is the powerful and effective invocation of that divine responsiveness.



~ J

Originally Posted by BlackfoxNZ

And that has allowed for some very interesting observations to be made, it seems that many people feel the need to validate their beliefs even when they are not directly being questioned which is odd but interesting and insightful,
Also noticed there seems to be a trend emerging that shows people are more and more trying to chase pleasure rather than knowledge, pleasure comes in many forms and what I mean by it is people are going for feeling part of a group/tribe/family when beliefing in and being a apart of a religion or group view, loved valued base on their beliefs( which just shows massive insecurities)
Whereas choosing to not believe in things and viewing things just by viewing without judgement which is the opposite of what most are doing here, allows for a greater understanding and knowledge,
And for those who will say love is the most important thing, is it love for someone/something or the idea of being loved you are chasing and seeking so badly, as knowledge does not come with love or pleasure or hate or pain it’s just knowing things without a emotional bases
I look forward to the responses to this^

I suppose that while perhaps one can take the spiritual experience out of being human, one can not seem to take the being human out of their spirituality.

Messy messy messy thing these human beings be.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

[indent][color="Navy"]Beliefs are often the mental constructs of faith. Yet, being devoted and dedicated to one's belief is the best way to experience and realize the purpose and consequence of those beliefs...experience, realize, examine, re-orient, and move on. That's "the way".

J! Like a 'good' detective follows up on his or her 'hunches'. Though as you know 'faith' can be completely miss-handled, as when 'cop' types who get carried away by their 'need' to 'know' many a time go after and convict the wrong person - as well as persist in thinking and pro-claiming there are right (or 'correct') even when they are presented with contradictory information because of their own ego-investment!