A Little About Science and Spirituality

[linen53]

Whew! This thread is very strong and running!

Thank you again for responding James/Bartholomew. Wondering if your Avatar is a depiction of Bart. Just a passing thought.

Yes, I said wars in heaven. I should have said in otherworldly realms, a slip back into the old verbiage. Do they pertain to us or don't they (not asking, just speculating)? I guess in my imagination I assumed they were on more esoteric problems, not on us lowly humans here on Gia, twiddling our thumbs and occasionally sticking a finger in our eye is see if it hurts. I didn't associate said wars with us. Maybe they are, maybe they are not.

Originally Posted by bartholomew

When I was a teen I knew an old lady. This was in the middle fifties. She was then 88 years old. I thought that she was out of her mind, a little afraid of her. One day she grasped my arm with a bony hand and declared "all I want is a coffin and a place to rest". Years later I had the idea that in her case death was experienced in a gentle way. A little at a time opposed to all at once. I wondered if she, in her dreams, could see something approaching that finally made sense of it and was yearning for culmination.

James/Bart

I couldn't help responding to this experience you had a youngster. There is only so much suffering some persons can experience before the burden of living replaces the exuberance souls experience when they first enter a new incarnation with all its gloss, glory and flurry of energy.

As a life comes to a close, the thought of rest, peace and quiet beacons like a siren calling her sailors.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by bartholomew

Thank you for your very informative response. Please don't worry about mere words. I may make queries but I make no demands on others regarding expressiveness and, I never take offense.

Blessings

And thank you, James for your kind response acknowledging mine, and for clarifying your position

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by linen53

Whew! This thread is very strong and running!

Thank you again for responding James/Bartholomew. Wondering if your Avatar is a depiction of Bart. Just a passing thought.

Yes, I said wars in heaven. I should have said in otherworldly realms, a slip back into the old verbiage. Do they pertain to us or don't they (not asking, just speculating)? I guess in my imagination I assumed they were on more esoteric problems, not on us lowly humans here on Gia, twiddling our thumbs and occasionally sticking a finger in our eye is see if it hurts. I didn't associate said wars with us. Maybe they are, maybe they are not.



I couldn't help responding to this experience you had a youngster. There is only so much suffering some persons can experience before the burden of living replaces the exuberance souls experience when they first enter a new incarnation with all its gloss, glory and flurry of energy.

As a life comes to a close, the thought of rest, peace and quiet beacons like a siren calling her sailors.

No. The avatar is me, taken about two years ago. My beard is a little longer now. Time to trim it. Tired of being called "hippy". ha ha

Bartholomew has never addressed the subject but I do not believe that in any of the spiritual realms war, of the kind that we know so well, exists. I just choose not to believe that. Of them all the ethereal is most likely candidate. It is very close to the physical and below the emotional after all.

We all age differently after all. Some are old at 60. Others are still kicking at 90. Me? I'll be 76 next month and can feel it. When my turn comes I'll leave without hesitating. I'm looking forward to summing up the life just past to discover how poorly or well I've managed the various karmic thingies. I am determined not to sit around a harp with glossed over eyes. I'm off to travel our solar system. I want to see for myself what Mars really looks like, especially regarding all the drama surrounding "ancient artifacts.... Are we being lied to by NASA or not? And the true history of the Earth interests me. What is the real story behind the recently discovered city off the northwest coast of India? And what's the truth behind the Piri Reis map? Lastly was Golden, CO really an alien spaceport before the mountain arose? (just kidding. Made that one up to see if you are paying attention) All those things can be discovered. In between lives offers us the opportunity to have a few intermedial "walk a bouts". I intend to use the opportunities afforded me.

Where did that paragraph come from? Well it's my thread. I can say what I want. Certainly not Bartish...

James

[guthrio]

All,

I've very much enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread, and have myself, responded similarly to other posts on this Science and Religion sub-forum, as indicated below. Your insightful, respectful correspondence has provided me with a most delicious feast of food for thought to consume.

Thank you....

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...67&postcount=4

Originally Posted by guthrio

All,

I've very much enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread, and have myself, responded similarly to other posts on this Science and Religion sub-forum, as indicated below. Your insightful, respectful correspondence has provided me with a most delicious feast of food for thought to consume.

Thank you....

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...67&postcount=4

Enjoy........

[SaturninePluto]

Posted by Bartholomew


Something else here. Our own souls may well be guides to others whether or not they are presently incarnated. Would we, the persons, know about it? Again look at the aura for an answer. Consider this.... Look again at your reading given in March of 17. Note the part where the relationship between heart and mind is spoken of. This information is derived directly from your aura. At a certain point whereat a human being no longer needs attentions of the guide he or she can be said to have achieved. See? Now what is there for a guide to do? Go help others who have not yet come so far. May I ask that you re read your reading?

Hello, James.

I unfortunately do not have a copy of the reading back in March, 2017. I did have a few of yours saved last I knew, the very first one in March, 17 however, I did not save. Although I very much did appreciate the reading, again thank you.

Thank you for your thoughtful response here concerning guides, I will refer back from time to time.

Blessings.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by bartholomew

Questions if you will allow?
1. What if one does not believe in spirit guides? In the sense that most spiritual encounters one has had have not been as benign as this sounds?

It is so often much better for the woman or man to not believe in such things. The problem with guides is that the average person might, might, might come to depend on them too much forgetting that the challenge of living is best met when we achieve by ourselves. Consider the businessperson who is responsible for making decisions which will impact the daily lives of thousands of others. They apply their minds. Solutions usually in the form of course changes are thought of. Did they meditate and ask their guides for help? Probably not. Did their guides really help them? Probably not. When a person is adequately focused in life there is no need to have some guide close by. We really seldom need them and depending on them all the time is often not such a good idea. Typically guides show up in times of stress or duress. They do, after all, have other things to do too.

Hello James,
I think we have absolutely no way of measuring or necessarily even conceiving of another being's "degree" of expansiveness of consciousness, nor what they are or are not aware of...nor whether they are present or not as we conceive of this.

But I also don't think it particularly matters, as long as humanity can live with the reality of uncertainty about nearly everything except our half-formed ideas and frame of reference.

I think it's good to say as you did "I believe"/"I feel"/"I think", as that is what this amounts to...simply sharing your interpretation of your experiences. Someone else's interpretation of your experiences would no doubt be quite different, and then there's the fact that their experiences are also different.

2. What if one realizes angels for what they are, inhuman and does not necessarily believe them to be as beings of ultimate good and love and light as mass media would have one believe?

[color="DarkGreen"]My personal view is that the legends of angels who help or guide is a remnant from the far gone days when off worlders worked overtly here on Earth concerned with providing guidance to the Earth humans of the times. Because they came from the sky they were depicted having wings and given special status. The gods of the times were those who directed the angels. Are they high spiritual beings just because they came from Sirius? Think about it. More likely they are from a more advanced race of beings, probably post human sorts, but this does not make them high spiritual entities.

My personal view is somewhat different, based on both research and on direct experience, variously. I think those who "came down from heaven" in the Sumerian texts were human extraterrestrials who simply had rather advanced technology and had mastered space travel in some fashion. By all accounts, their general level of moral development was rather primitive, basically no different from ours.

They were, IMO, in NO WAY "high spiritual beings", hahaha , and it was only a very primitive Gaian humanity who would have considered them as such...though it's true we did worship them in ancient times as "gods".

Human or non-human, incarnated or transcendent, beings who have our highest good at heart will IMO impress us first and foremost with their radiant lovingkindness and equanimity.

IMO, only once we are able to do the same amongst ourselves here on earth, then and only then are we ever likely to have anyone else visit openly and address us in the physical sense.

3. More importantly what if one simply does not need this type of assistance, is there even a choice? What if one chooses not to be assisted by a guide?

Good. To learn to be self sufficient is the best possible thing that can happen. Take charge! Throw away dependencies! Free yourself! Good! This is precisely what guides what of us. choice? Yes there is a choice. Just sit quietly and say "thanks but I can manage" and they'll be happy to pull back. There are many who really do need what guides offer. Let these good folk receive as they require.

True, with the caveat that interacting with guides is not a "sign" of weakness or neediness. Communication is simply an aspect of evolved and evolving consciousness, and IMO it's a good and natural thing to communicate as we see fit. There should be no "stigma" to communicating with whomever we like, as authentic communication on many aspects of existence is beneficial and informative all round.

A typical guide is just a human being like us. He or she cares for a few others who just happen to be less evolved then they are. Nothing mystical about what they do. If they draw near and see in an aura that everything is fine they leave. This is the way they operate. These souls do have other responsibilities as well. And they have to be concerned with their own evolution too. Guiding is like a collateral duty.

Perhaps this is an apt description of a typical guide...who and whatever that may be. And perhaps not. What it is more concretely, IMO, is your informed opinion based on your experiences with your guide and info conveyed to you, as you have received and interpreted it.

In truth, as I see it, we have no idea or means of fully apprehending all the ways in which we may as yet learn, communicate, "guide", or be "guided". But I am fairly certain of the vast uncertainty that we have yet to fully apprehend and grasp

As I would say, simply keep an open mind, one and all, and we can all remember that our experience is valid and key for each of us, as best we are able to receive and interpret it at this time and in each moment.

Peace & blessings
7L

[linen53]

I think you look quite dasher in the beard. The look on your face is priceless. Just wondering who took the picture and what the setting is to get that look on your face.

The spiritual wars were brought up to me a while back during a conversation with a friend. The thought was foreign to me. That's why I asked you. One of those things to ponder on.

I have heard tell that we live in a universe, or multiverse or whatever you want to call it (I'm not one on proper wordish) that has free will. But other -verses have other sets of rules. Maybe those are dark places with violence and chaos. Maybe that is where the wars are fought. Against the Light? Maybe so, but only if the Dark is trying to invade the Light, I would think.

The thought to how big space is, well, I just can't comprehend it. Wondering to myself if the Creator/Creators brought it all into being or if there are other types/sets of Creators out there for different areas with different reasons for creation. Of course there is no way to prove or disprove. Just speculating.

I'm not talking about dark realms here in this universe. I know they exist and are useful for those who cannot handle the light just yet.

Lol, you made me laugh. I am full to the brim with questions when I get to the other side. Now that I am fully spiritually awake (a major hurtle in this lifetime) I have so much I want to know. And so many places I want to visit just like you do. For one, I'm not sure I want to cross over immediately. I think I'd like to visit in the 3D, sites here that I've always wanted to see with the emotions I have now still intact. And I'd like to visit my family with which I am pretty much estranged, to see they are all doing alright. Yes, I know I can come back later, but I'd like to do all that before I go.

Actually Alamosa, CO (San Luis Valley) has been known for many cattle mutilations and UFO sights. It's not an interest to me (I'm not originally from CO) but anyway, there you have it. Not Golden,

https://smile.amazon.com/Enter-Valle...valley+ufo%27s

https://smile.amazon.com/Secrets-Mys...valley+ufo%27s

My husband has read both books. His family originated from there.

I am old at 64 almost 65. I began my struggles as an infant. So I've been at 'it' longer than most people my age. No, I'm not ready to move on, but I sure wish I could live with less struggles with pain. It seems to be one thing after another since 2012. I would suppose more 'lessons'.

No, I don't want to survive until I'm 90. With my food allergies it is impossible to even contemplate assisted living. Everything has to be cooked in my kitchen for me to eat safely. So the idea of having to go grocery shopping in a nearby city (we live in a small town) 45 minutes away, bringing home the 'bacon', cooking from scratch, etc, etc, etc, at 90 years old is not appealing. As with you, I am ready to go when I'm ready.

I came to the understanding quite some time ago that I don't beat myself up for what I did or didn't do in this lifetime. My motto is: I'm here, you're there, we will discuss this when I get there. Believe me, for years I lived on a guilt ridden roller coaster ride. I finally got past that. What I did accomplish or what I didn't accomplish is a moot point; I realize that it's a lot tougher than what it looks like 'up there' (wherever 'there' is). And I'm sure my guides will heartily agree.

Originally Posted by linen53

I think you look quite dasher in the beard. The look on your face is priceless. Just wondering who took the picture and what the setting is to get that look on your face.

The spiritual wars were brought up to me a while back during a conversation with a friend. The thought was foreign to me. That's why I asked you. One of those things to ponder on.

I have heard tell that we live in a universe, or multiverse or whatever you want to call it (I'm not one on proper wordish) that has free will. But other -verses have other sets of rules. Maybe those are dark places with violence and chaos. Maybe that is where the wars are fought. Against the Light? Maybe so, but only if the Dark is trying to invade the Light, I would think.

The thought to how big space is, well, I just can't comprehend it. Wondering to myself if the Creator/Creators brought it all into being or if there are other types/sets of Creators out there for different areas with different reasons for creation. Of course there is no way to prove or disprove. Just speculating.

I'm not talking about dark realms here in this universe. I know they exist and are useful for those who cannot handle the light just yet.

Lol, you made me laugh. I am full to the brim with questions when I get to the other side. Now that I am fully spiritually awake (a major hurtle in this lifetime) I have so much I want to know. And so many places I want to visit just like you do. For one, I'm not sure I want to cross over immediately. I think I'd like to visit in the 3D, sites here that I've always wanted to see with the emotions I have now still intact. And I'd like to visit my family with which I am pretty much estranged, to see they are all doing alright. Yes, I know I can come back later, but I'd like to do all that before I go.

Actually Alamosa, CO (San Luis Valley) has been known for many cattle mutilations and UFO sights. It's not an interest to me (I'm not originally from CO) but anyway, there you have it. Not Golden,

https://smile.amazon.com/Enter-Valle...valley+ufo%27s

https://smile.amazon.com/Secrets-Mys...valley+ufo%27s

My husband has read both books. His family originated from there.

I am old at 64 almost 65. I began my struggles as an infant. So I've been at 'it' longer than most people my age. No, I'm not ready to move on, but I sure wish I could live with less struggles with pain. It seems to be one thing after another since 2012. I would suppose more 'lessons'.

No, I don't want to survive until I'm 90. With my food allergies it is impossible to even contemplate assisted living. Everything has to be cooked in my kitchen for me to eat safely. So the idea of having to go grocery shopping in a nearby city (we live in a small town) 45 minutes away, bringing home the 'bacon', cooking from scratch, etc, etc, etc, at 90 years old is not appealing. As with you, I am ready to go when I'm ready.

I came to the understanding quite some time ago that I don't beat myself up for what I did or didn't do in this lifetime. My motto is: I'm here, you're there, we will discuss this when I get there. Believe me, for years I lived on a guilt ridden roller coaster ride. I finally got past that. What I did accomplish or what I didn't accomplish is a moot point; I realize that it's a lot tougher than what it looks like 'up there' (wherever 'there' is). And I'm sure my guides will heartily agree.

Thanks for the most introspective piece. The picture? I asked my daughter in law to take it one day. I don't remember the mood except that it was meant to be used as an avatar on this forum. Maybe that expectation had something to do with it. Black and white photos have a special quality that seems to be missing with color.... some say.

I'll be 76 next month and am beginning to feel it a little. I'm lucky to have no chronic conditions of any sort beyond being very hard of hearing. I do heavy physical work all the time. I'm a retired communications technician but have a nice job driving a medium sized truck which has a lift gate on the back. I drive all over Oregon and man handle pallets of stuff sometimes up to 600 pounds by myself. I like the physical part. Makes me feel alive. But lately I seem to be more tired than usual. Trouble sleeping until 0400 sometimes. I work in my garden quite a lot. I like to grow veggies each summer. My wife of 47 years passed six years ago. She's been back for a visit twice now. The second time she was dressed in her favorite outfit from our last lifetime together in France. That was a surprise!

Universe? Multiverse? Huh? I've been listening to "spiritual" talk for a long time. I have to say I am always amazed at the complexity of existence that people imagine. Why, I say, does it have to be so convoluted just because it is in the subtle realms and not the physical? I try to always go for the simple explanations.

Guides? The vast majority have one and the direct involvement is very little. Who among us is so important that one guide is not enough? Not me for sure. It's a mistake to think about being guided by others all the time. The reason? It's not good for folks to get the feeling they don't have to be responsible for everything "because my guides have given me this to do.... etc etc". Most of us have a guide who is just another human being who we've known for a long time. In truth, each of us sets our own agenda. We give ourselves things to do, not guides. Our guide merely sometimes prods us so we remember the plan that WE, each of us, made before coming here. Most guides stay away and just watch. We help each other. Nothing mystical about it. And why do guides have to be high spiritual entities from far away? Sorry. No sense in that. Why would a mere puny single little human warrant the attention of some angel from Sirius? Doesn't make sense to me. But such things play up to our inclination to think in mystical terms so we do it.

Who is your avatar? I thought it was you. But it looks male.

In my spiritual practice the main thing, that which is certainly true is the connection that I am able to make with the subtle, mental, plane with Bartholomew. This is unique and cannot be argued away no matter how closely I examine it. Some folks can see auras. I know a Mexican lady who can see the bones inside the bodies of others. I can knowingly and deliberately turn on my palm chakras (each of them is a circle about two inches in diameter) and feel inside of peoples bodies. I've seen them. This is how I investigate auras. I have felt tumors. They feel like sharply defined hot spots. I felt a problem in a lady's head, between her eyes, one day. It felt like little needles sticking into my palm in a small area. I asked her if she knew what was wrong. She said "I'm going blind". One day long ago I saw a man get knocked off his motorcycle by a car and land on the sidewalk. I touched his shoulder. For two days afterwards I my hand hurt like blazes. I had taken his pain into my body. I am an empath. He had a broken shoulder that I didn't know about then. So this is the kind of sensitive that I am. It's real. I've demonstrated it to psychologists. They just say I'm more sensitive than others. But to what? Sensitive to what exactly? If the physical is all there is then what is the mechanism of this sensitivity and what is the medium through which it is apparent? They have to shut up because they don't know. All the years of their education doesn't begin to touch such things. So they default to non specific words like "imagination" to explain away what their teachers knew about but avoided. But do they even know what imagination is? No. They don't. They think it originates in our brains. It doesn't. Our brains only allow us to connect to it. When we imagine we are functioning on the astral or mental planes, bringing back pictures and ideas. So simple. And there is a small place in the brain which allows this to happen. This is why medical drugs have an effect. This is why "recreational drugs" ha

I am the practical kind of psychic. I don't go for mysticism, high beings who float around doing post Biblical stuff to impress people. I don't go to la la land when I talk about such things. I stay right here and use common sense. When I read what you write about food sensitivities one word pops into my pumpkin head. "Purity". Give this some thought.

The above is who I am... When Bartholomew is dictating what I write is different. When he is not I am just an ordinary guy. Sometimes overbearlingly ordinary.

Thanks for the nice interchange. A bit of fun.

James

[7luminaries]

Hello there James. While Linen gets back to you, I just wanted to respond to a few things. Not to interrupt your conversation with her :)

Universe? Multiverse? Huh? I've been listening to "spiritual" talk for a long time. I have to say I am always amazed at the complexity of existence that people imagine. Why, I say, does it have to be so convoluted just because it is in the subtle realms and not the physical? I try to always go for the simple explanations.

James, I think it's fine to relate to whatever level(s) make sense to you.
However, there's never a need to disparage others, no matter how subtly.

Steven Hawking's last paper discussed multiverses (though he thinks we cannot get to other parallel universes, and I agree). There are many very reasonable and well-considered scientists who agree that the theory, the maths, and the implications inherent in our current reality all support multiverses.

It doesn't make them convoluted in their thinking, nor given to flights of fancy, nor is it necessary to disclaim your experiences as other than "mystical" or "spiritual" as if these things are somehow inherently bad or distasteful or somehow undesired.

Why is it that you have a need to constantly disclaim that a is bad, distasteful, overly fussy, etc and that you are certainly not a?

Is it that you yourself have been disparaged and mocked, and hence you perhaps almost reflexively have to qualify that you are not a?

If so, what others may have done to you is simply wrong, full stop, as it's not for others to judge or label your experiences. There's simply no way that they can even do this with any certainty or accuracy, so it's IMO ludicrous of anyone to even attempt to label, judge, &/or disparage the experiences OR thoughts OR feelings of others.

Likewise, when you use these same labels by way of comparison -- putting them onto any and all others who differ from you in any way -- that too is wrong and ludicrous, as well, IMO.

Simply because others differ doesn't make your approach "simpler", "less convoluted", less mystical/spiritual/BAD and thus more "commonsense"/factual/grounded/GOOD (or at least, better than a).

It only means that according to you, your way is better and more factual and grounded for YOU , based on your experiences & your interpretation of those.

In exactly the same way, others' lived experiences are factual, grounded, and are common sense to them. Based on THEIR experiences & their interpretation of those experiences.

Lacking understanding of other's direct experience, thought, &/or emotion doesn't make them flaky etc etc., whilst we are grounded etc etc. It doesn't make them bad and us good, in whatever way we rank or label or conceive of these things.

Your beliefs &/or experiences are solid and concrete and straightforward to you, and in exactly the same way, others' beliefs &/or experiences are solid and concrete and straightforward to them.

And in many cases, no matter how solidly we feel we've explained, reasoned, "factually" supported, and/or "demonstrated"/proven to others this or that, they may or may not apprehend anything further than what they are able to grasp or allow in that moment. Hence you feel you are working with energy in some fashion, say, whilst the doc says you're just more sensitive. Who knows what any of that means?

You know what you know, and he knows what he knows. Thus he can only apply a vague label because he has not had your direct experiences and nor is his mind likely able to accept the existence of (what is to him) mystery and the unknown. To you perhaps it's not a mystery. But without a doubt, there will be other things like multiverses which to you remain more mysterious at this time.

IMO it comes down to acceptance and allowing both yourself and others the right to our own experiences, fully and completely, without interpreting or labeling or disparaging the experiences of others.

And it equally comes down to acceptance of mystery and the unknown, as each of us will have many areas where we know only a little of the vastness of what is -- and overlapping perhaps not at all with the next person. TBH, much of the acceptance of the unknown and of mystery deals with consciousness and what we call the soul. As we often can apprehend and own only the smallest bits of all we are.

BTW, Linen's pic looks to me like an attractive woman over 40 I'll say with a pixie cut and a warm smile.

Peace & blessings
7L