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[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I would disagree on free will. As long as you are caught up in automatic responses, fears, etc.. you really don't have much free will.

REALLY GOOD POINTS!

Fear is one variable we generally do not consider into the equation when considering free will. Memorized scripts fall into the automatic response category which also limits and in some cases cancels out our free will.

Thinking more on the subject, free will might be a rarity.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by JustBe

When I read this I feel like saying out loud..’blah blah blah’

With that being said.

I’m learning from life..

When your aware of yourself deep enough to know yourself, your not in need or desire to chase after anything.

Your still learning the ropes so I can see why you cut and paste.

A teacher that doesn’t need to teach, is very observant of itself aware.

I’m enjoying learning what my true self can do. So I’m learning every moment.

Why am I here then you might ask?

I like the crux of Buddhism because it fits what I know can be through direct experience most naturally.

Your learning this much ——————————————- to know this much - then of course your interest in Buddhist contexts will move to interest in other things.

So if this makes sense to you do you see how you might learn yourself through others?

Or are you still determine to teach those who have understood through the complexity of themselves right through to know the simplicity of ‘just being’ and seeing it all matters until it no longer matters.

What matters is the person who is investigating all matters..so who are you jonesboy, what desires, cravings needs still linger in you? Do you know yourself deep to your most vulnerable, cranky, impatient, annoyed human self. Have you surrendered death and life in yourself? Have you let go to the deepest part of your being? Can you know how deep is deep if you haven’t been there yourself?

Tell me about your failings your weaknesses, your aspirations, your loyalties. Your desires for yourself and all life..what little flights upset you, what bigger matters get you riled, angry and peeved.

I’m thinking I might learn the violin..so yes I like learning.

Isn't the bolded all the **** people dislike about supposed teachers?

You are just trying to be a therapist, telling others to stop teaching while you preach.

I said the following.

Be curious, look at your own depth of realization and read what traditions have to say about it... learn..

You replied:

Can you know how deep is deep if you haven’t been there yourself?

You can read up on your own depth, does it align with the teachings of the tradition. If so, it should give you some faith that they know what they are talking about. You may choose to read up on what's next, or talk to a lama to refine where you are now.

These practices are about improving your life, they can be very powerful. Why wouldn't someone want to take them seriously?

I’m thinking I might learn the violin..so yes I like learning.

You might? Maybe someday in the future? Now it's just a thought, an idea, a dream? I look forward to you learning in the future as well.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

REALLY GOOD POINTS!

Fear is one variable we generally do not consider into the equation when considering free will. Memorized scripts fall into the automatic response category which also limits and in some cases cancels out our free will.

Thinking more on the subject, free will might be a rarity.

Yes it is.

[Unseeking Seeker]

***

Fear. Can we not deal with it? I think we can

***

[Moongirl33]

Thank You for saying that.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

My view is let those who are interested go off and do some learning, and let those without much interest be in our company. Feel free to speak in your own voice using your own words. The Buddhist practice in that regard is 'right speech'. It therefore only matters if what you say is 'rightly' motivated. By being rightly motivated one automatically adheres to morality of sila. In this way you can see how what you say directly relates to sila, and by such understanding you know that aspect of 'practice'.

So those who want to learn go somewhere else and those who just want to listen to Gem's views on Buddhism and don't know Buddhism are free to stay?

Please explain how telling people who want to learn Buddhism to go somewhere else is right speech?

"There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.

The criteria for deciding what is worth saying
[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/...aca/index.html

I do think these teachings on Right Speech would apply..

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Isn't the bolded all the **** people dislike about supposed teachers?

You are just trying to be a therapist, telling others to stop teaching while you preach.

I said the following.



You replied:



You can read up on your own deep, does it align with the teachings of the tradition. If so, it should give you some faith that they know what they are talking about. You may choose to read up on what's next, or talk to a lama to refine where you are now.

These practices are about improving your life, they can be very powerful. Why wouldn't someone want to take them seriously?



You might? Maybe someday in the future? Now it's just a thought, an idea, a dream? I look forward to you learning in the future as well.

Therapist.. lol

If that fits your view of me, I can accept your view but I’m not agreeing with it.

So tell me your daily practice?

I’m just trying to see you beyond all the copy and pasting’s of Buddhism

So he reason I asked fifty one questions the way I did, was to invite you into showing the real you.

When you copy and paste, why don’t you also relate your own experience to that teaching? Like how does it fit into your waking walking life. How does it fit as a practice in your daily attentiveness?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

There is so much to expand through using your ‘own voice’ and words. With attention from within in this way, you can listen more directly to everything flowing from yourself. Then with an openness to engage in this way, you can naturally allow those connections to open you further. It’s an opportunity to move through things most naturally, with attention in each moment. This is the practice, that can lead you to find yourself in the teachings that you seek to find and relate too, as yourself. In this way your preferred learning, leads you to a more direct experience as a whole.

I guess when I mention self-awareness claiming it is essential to understand the topic I am referring to attention within, and when that comes to this conversation it is listening not only to information but being conscious of the affect in yourself. It won't happen yet because because the air is still a little inflamed and somewhat commanding, but in time it will settle down to a quiet acceptance of the way things things are, and given that space, movement will be enabled in the natural sense you mention.



I'm not going to place importance on learning or taking actions at another time. I don't discourage it in any way, though, and people who want that should do as they will. I only talk about things in a reasonable way and in an orderly fashion. And even if I expect to be listened to seriously because that's only respectful, it's not for me to make that happen.


As far as I am concerned, it is appropriate to cover the very basic things, but the basic things are very nuanced and shouldn't be underestimated. I know these are overlooked because of the nuanced nature they have. Indeed things run deep, as mentioned in earlier post, and true enough to say you can only know deep to the ability of your perception. But more fundamentally, it not the depth of perception itself, but the truth to yourself about how deep your perception is - without any comparison to someone else. That honesty with yourself is the 'way' to 'walk the path of truth', and since truthfulness is essential, sila is your critical foundation. If you have notions such as it's not deep enough, it needs to be deeper, etc. that's ego's reaching for future states which are not the current state. The attention needs to be with the current state because existence is here and now, and 'this' is the truth of yourself as you are.


Take that not with acceptance per-se, and not with rejection either, but as the simple fact 'this is the truth of myself at the moment'. Not with desire for another state, not with a craving for a greater depth, not with anything added to the bare truth of your awareness.


From the beginning you watch breath, and if you breath deep you know it is deep, if shallow you know it is shallow, and all the way through, you simply 'know' in the most direct and subjective sense 'this is how it is'. Similarly, as the thread is here as it is, we simply know 'it is this'. With this thread, every breath, and all other things, there is a continual opportunity for direct experience not of something else at another time, but of 'this' now.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

***

Fear. Can we not deal with it? I think we can

***

Who’s afraid in all this?

I’m not seeing fear here seeker?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

So those who want to learn go somewhere else and those who just want to listen to Gem's views on Buddhism and don't know Buddhism are free to stay?

Please explain how telling people who want to learn Buddhism to go somewhere else is right speech?

In the Op I explained: "If you want to discuss them in more depth, please do. I'd love to. But I'm not interested in arguing about it."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-vaca/index.html

I do think these teachings on Right Speech would apply..

Ok.