Ending capitalism is possible...

Paul Ryan said it best. We believe in equal opportunity, not in equal outcomes.

It remains evident however that the current financial models are not working well, so like the man said.


"Somethins gotta give"

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

No..

With equal payment you prevent people from taking up responsible intelligent jobs. You are basically saying a toilet cleaner should get the same income as a doctor.

Now don't you think that's taking it a bit too far ?

What about these companies that take in billions, but only pay their workers the bare minimum, or the ones who move operations to another country because they can pay people even less therefore reap more of a profit ? Capitalism takes advantage of the unfortunate.

If capitalism is so great, then why are so many suffering ?

This advanced capitalistic society you are glorifying is detrimental to the well being of the majority. Capitalism benefits the few while the many bear it's burden upon their backs.

The most shameful part of it all is the wannabees and the poor themselves who shill for such a system. All for what, ten cents a post ?

[Internal Queries]

the main problem i see in the capitalist model is that nothing has any intrinsic value. if it doesn't bring in profit it's worthless so exploiting underling workers and raping and pillaging the planet is "just business".

Originally Posted by Podshell

I think innovation and progress will rapidly increase under a better system

Yes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p43YYovonS0

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by Wisa'ka

Now don't you think that's taking it a bit too far ?

What about these companies that take in billions, but only pay their workers the bare minimum, or the ones who move operations to another country because they can pay people even less therefore reap more of a profit ? Capitalism takes advantage of the unfortunate.

If capitalism is so great, then why are so many suffering ?
This advanced capitalistic society you are glorifying is detrimental to the well being of the majority. Capitalism benefits the few while the many bear it's burden upon their backs.

No, the majority is actually benefiting. In communism everyone is equally poor and miserable. Generally leftist parties want the rich to become poorer and the poor to stay poor. This is all to clear here in Europe where we see areas and provinces governed by socialists yet the situation of ''the poor'' hasn't been improving much. It is also a matter of mentality that is prevalent in many deep leftist voters over here.

And who are the ''many'' that suffer because of capitalism? There are 6 billion humans alive. How do you know they suffer because of capitalism? Countries that have transitioned to capitalism and democracy have become stronger and actually improved the welfare of their citizens. What about the alternatives.. Islamic states? China? North Korea? I know I wouldn't want to live there.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

No, the majority is actually benefiting. In communism everyone is equally poor and miserable. Generally leftist parties want the rich to become poorer and the poor to stay poor. This is all to clear here in Europe where we see areas and provinces governed by socialists yet the situation of ''the poor'' hasn't been improving much. It is also a matter of mentality that is prevalent in many deep leftist voters over here.

And who are the ''many'' that suffer because of capitalism? There are 6 billion humans alive. How do you know they suffer because of capitalism? Countries that have transitioned to capitalism and democracy have become stronger and actually improved the welfare of their citizens. What about the alternatives.. Islamic states? China? North Korea? I know I wouldn't want to live there.

I think the nearest to communism are those still existing primitive tribes who exist in this world. People share and share alike through both lean and fat times. Advanced capitalism is an nasty aspect of civilization.

America, an extremely capitalistic has advanced in it's capitalism to the point of becoming weaker and bit by bit diminishing the welfare of it's poor and common working class citizens.

[Tezorian]

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Species thrive on competition. Go outside for a change and don't just daydream about an utopia.

How is this a viable argument. Are you just trying to troll here or do you just refuse to think about this? You are convinced that the only way to have competition, is to have a reward for it in the form of money. Yet you contradict yourself with saying "There always is".

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

I see now that you have equated competition with money.

No, i have not. However, i do equate competition with motivation. That's the difference.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Virtual money can be 'robbed' too.

You have given away all your money yet?

Perhaps you should let people decide whether they want more or not, or are you going to tell them ''you don't need more''. You would stop people from being ambitious, exactly what a communist would do.

If there is no money, it can not be robbed. This is however an issue, same as how this rough sketch idea is vulnerable to fraud. However all ideas start somewhere.

Would it be wise to give away our money? No, because we need it to support ourself. Why, because the current system requires it.

I'm not going to try to help you understand the "more is not better". You are so focussed on money, you just refuse to see any other way to be competitive, reaching, gaining or ambitious.
The way i see it, your only TRUE goal is to earn more money. You don't care about feeling gratification, satisfaction, fulfillment or accomplishment. That is basically what capitalism is about, what the current system is about. It's all about the money, getting more and not the indiviual well-being. As long as you are able to get that 'high', like a drug. Every time you get a 'high' you want another 'high'. Either more money or more things. Get that car or that tv and you finally have it and suddenly realize that it's not giving you the feeling you expected to have.
Before you comment on me just not knowing what it's like or that i have no idea how this works, let me tell you this. I have been earning money and more money and wanting more money and stuck in the buying more and better stuff. It was never enough and i didn't even realize how bad it was until after i looked back. I thought i had lived and spent in about 15-20 years, when in fact it was barely 3 years. I had everything i wanted, yet i didn't have what i needed.
So no, i am not telling people what they want, i am hoping that with this system, people will see what they need.
It is VERY important that everyone understands the difference between WANTS and NEEDS. What we want isn't a need perse. In the same way that green is a color, but color isn't green perse.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Why punish intelligent people and tell them they should be content with less and feel bad about themselves because there are other people who are less intelligent and productive? What deep leftists see in front of them is a mirror and they don't like it, and then they blame it on others.

It is. You want equal distribution of wealth.

Who would be punishing them and who is telling them to be content with less and worse make them feel bad about themselves? If you could explain this a little bit more, because this part is confusing me.

If there is no money, there is no wealth.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Everyone can clean their own toilet and everyone can take responsibility to not make public toilets such a mess. Take a doctor away, nothing would happen? My God you are incredibly naive.

LOL. Am i naive or are you narrowminded? Before i go into this further, let me correct your mistake. Once again you're reading what you want to read, not what i say. I didn't say that taking the doctor away nothing would happen. I said "if you take the doctor away, not that many people will notice.". To clarify this statement even more, people use the toilet daily, usually multiple times a day. This is not the case for a doctor.
You say that everyone can clean their own toilet. True. Same goes for the public toilet. This comes down to responsibility. If we took the toilet-cleaners away and you would go to a public toilet. Take into account that the common practice SHOULD be that everyone takes responsibility for it. You would enter one that just looks disgusting. Would you take responsibility for it. Would you find the person responsible for the mess? Would you confront that person with it? Or would you just find another one that looks clean? If no clean ones were in this public building, would you walk out and find another place?

And to add to the difference and fairness in pay, how about people in sports. That has to do nothing with education and pretty much all comes down to skill. They provide entertainment, but basically don't contribute anything to society. Yet they receive more money than either of those contributing people. (ps. this is not a naive look in regards to what they contribute to society, i do recognize the value of them)

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

You have a choice, but if you don't put effort into it you have yourself to blame.

There is always a choice, true. However not everyone is allowed to choose differently. It has become a lot less, but it's still not fully allowed. Some people still get arrested or cast out of society for being different. Despite the fact that they are productive or contribute to society.

Originally Posted by Wisa'ka

I think the nearest to communism are those still existing primitive tribes who exist in this world. People share and share alike through both lean and fat times. Advanced capitalism is an nasty aspect of civilization.

America, an extremely capitalistic has advanced in it's capitalism to the point of becoming weaker and bit by bit diminishing the welfare of it's poor and common working class citizens.

This is basically what this system should allow us to get back to. It's a stepping stone.

That advanced capitalism is what makes me think of this system.
Years ago i already said that holland was going to be like america. They called me crazy. Individual health-insurance? I was crazy for even suggesting they would allow that. Taxes doubling? I was crazy, but it has more than just doubled. People refuse to see where we're heading and they think, as long as i've got it good now, i'll be good later on. However more and more people are seeing that they are getting less and less. Even though a lot are working more and more.

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by Tezorian

How is this a viable argument. Are you just trying to troll here or do you just refuse to think about this? You are convinced that the only way to have competition, is to have a reward for it in the form of money. Yet you contradict yourself with saying "There always is".

Straw man, I wasn't mentioning money there nor do I contradict myself. I said there always is competition to your comment about schools.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

Would it be wise to give away our money? No, because we need it to support ourself. Why, because the current system requires it.

You said we don't need money at all. As for ''the current system'' - nobody is stopping you from living in the woods, live a more poor lifestyle, grow and hunt your own food.

It's a mentality problem, we either believe in opportunities that are provided for us, or we believe in disabilities.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

I'm not going to try to help you understand the "more is not better". You are so focussed on money, you just refuse to see any other way to be competitive, reaching, gaining or ambitious.

I was thinking about ''the more the better'' in a general sense, not money alone. Money makes things possible.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

The way i see it, your only TRUE goal is to earn more money. You don't care about feeling gratification, satisfaction, fulfillment or accomplishment. That is basically what capitalism is about, what the current system is about. It's all about the money, getting more and not the indiviual well-being. As long as you are able to get that 'high', like a drug. Every time you get a 'high' you want another 'high'. Either more money or more things. Get that car or that tv and you finally have it and suddenly realize that it's not giving you the feeling you expected to have.

That's just nonsense.. people want money to get gratification, satisfaction and accomplishment.

You can lessen your intake of gratification if it makes you tired. That is a choice, just as it is a choice for other people not to do so. You are not the only one with minimalist tendencies and you could find others who share these values.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

Before you comment on me just not knowing what it's like or that i have no idea how this works, let me tell you this. I have been earning money and more money and wanting more money and stuck in the buying more and better stuff. It was never enough and i didn't even realize how bad it was until after i looked back. I thought i had lived and spent in about 15-20 years, when in fact it was barely 3 years. I had everything i wanted, yet i didn't have what i needed.
So no, i am not telling people what they want, i am hoping that with this system, people will see what they need.
It is VERY important that everyone understands the difference between WANTS and NEEDS. What we want isn't a need perse. In the same way that green is a color, but color isn't green perse.

That is your experience, but we cannot decide for other people what they should want and what they should need. Let everyone decide for themselves.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

LOL. Am i naive or are you narrowminded? Before i go into this further, let me correct your mistake. Once again you're reading what you want to read, not what i say. I didn't say that taking the doctor away nothing would happen. I said "if you take the doctor away, not that many people will notice.".

No, because the people with serious illness would stay home lying in their beds. Nobody would notice, you're right..

Originally Posted by Tezoran

.To clarify this statement even more, people use the toilet daily, usually multiple times a day. This is not the case for a doctor.
You say that everyone can clean their own toilet. True. Same goes for the public toilet. This comes down to responsibility. If we took the toilet-cleaners away and you would go to a public toilet. Take into account that the common practice SHOULD be that everyone takes responsibility for
You would enter one that just looks disgusting. Would you take responsibility for it. Would you find the person responsible for the mess? Would you confront that person with it? Or would you just find another one that looks clean? If no clean ones were in this public building, would you walk out and find another place?

I would search for a clean toilet.

But you know everyone can clean a toilet, not everyone can be a doctor. The knowledge of health and medicine is far more valuable than the knowledge of how to clean a toilet. The latter can be learned in little time, the former takes years of education.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

And to add to the difference and fairness in pay, how about people in sports. That has to do nothing with education and pretty much all comes down to skill. They provide entertainment, but basically don't contribute anything to society. Yet they receive more money than either of those contributing people. (ps. this is not a naive look in regards to what they contribute to society, i do recognize the value of them)

In a sense they do contribute as they provide entertainment to people, and as long as the people are interested in it the professional athletes will be paid handsomely. Don't like it? Don't watch it, and don't pay for the games. Who are you or me to decide what is valuable to society and what is not? It does not matter how silly or noncontributing a sport to society may be, if the people like it there will be a market for it.

Originally Posted by Tezorian

There is always a choice, true. However not everyone is allowed to choose differently. It has become a lot less, but it's still not fully allowed. Some people still get arrested or cast out of society for being different. Despite the fact that they are productive or contribute to society.

Example..?

"Some people still get arrested or cast out of society for being different. Despite the fact that they are productive or contribute to society"

Sure, people react to those different. It's like a clique, class, or caste mentality that capitalism and the ruling elite promote.