No God

[running]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

More like would he say he is going to touch your being and then you would directly feel it. Or was it more that you were in a group meditation session and would feel things then.

i never spent time with him individually. i just did his group meditations on the net or in person.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I agree people can be distracted by bliss and become frightened of silence.

Yet both are first steps on the path. Are sign posts of one progressing on the path. So is letting go of the attachment to bliss as described in the jnana's as taught by the Buddha.

This is what I was saying, and when I studied meditation there is a lot of caution around craving bliss or whatever feelings anyone might have, and the practice is always awareness without craving no matter what the experience is.


In my experience what I call heart opening is a different thing from drect contact with the outpouring, and people can have blocked up hearts and directly contact the outpouring. The outpouring regards 'as you are now', so with all the blocks and issues a person might have, that's the way they are.


What I'd call heart opening is when pure love starts to bubble up, usually in the chest area. I guess it is how the outpouring comes through the mind/body and it requires a small degree of purification - but the diresct contact doesn't require anything. It's just noticed. There s no fanfare. Its neutral, like, 'oh, that'. As if you noticed a bowl of porridge on the table - it ain't no chocolate cake - no 'wow factor'.

Silence is blissful, mindfulness is blissful yet there is always deeper silence and mindfulness is just a step towards contemplation.

One step. Stop and look.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You are still describing will. You just approve of a will that fits your belief system is all.

I keep explaining the intent to observe breath (which is feeling) does not involve the will to change the way it feels.

Nowhere in Buddhism is it taught that thoughts are imaginary.

Buddhism is about the clarity of thoughts.

Of course thoughts are imagined, but clear thinking is better than a mental fog.

[running]

Originally Posted by Gem

This is what I was saying, and when I studied meditation there is a lot of caution around craving bliss or whatever feelings anyone might have, and the practice is always awareness without craving no matter what the experience is.


In my experience what I call heart opening is a different thing from drect contact with the outpouring, and people can have blocked up hearts and directly contact the outpouring. The outpouring regards 'as you are now', so with all the blocks and issues a person might have, that's the way they are.


What I'd call heart opening is when pure love starts to bubble up, usually in the chest area. I guess it is how the outpouring comes through the mind/body and it requires a small degree of purification - but the diresct contact doesn't require anything. It's just noticed. There s no fanfare. Its neutral, like, 'oh, that'. As if you noticed a bowl of porridge on the table - it ain't no chocolate cake - no 'wow factor'.




One step. Stop and look.

as i have mentioned before there could be times that craving bliss could push the it away. moments in the grand scheme of it all. the main agenda behind behind the concern is utter nonsense. stupidity. ignorance. propoganda in its purest form. bliss and silence dissolves what some call karma. emotions and thoughts get scooped up as they arrise and put to bed. that is the gravitational pull that keeps one centered. you either doing it through effort. or by bliss and silence.

[running]

not sure there is anything more counterproductive than people pushing to not desire, want, and crave bliss. sometimes i wonder if im in a twilight zone movie. lol.

well. i guess its a step up from when i lived in like a bible belt area and everyone believed jesus or hell. lol

sorry folks but when it comes to bliss i will speak up. and again. the good news is i don't with most else.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by running

thanks for taking the time to elaborate. and share how you came to what your experiencing today. you lost me a bit on your last post. now your making sense to me. its your practice and some of your concerns i dont understand. your experience i believe to understand. i don't need to understand your practice as it is yours and not mine. lol

The concerns I express are with desire aversion craving reactivity.



Despite the argument from the experts, the realty is, I studied meditation in the formal setting and undertook the hard yards of formal practice. I refined the meditation to a quite subtle degree. I served the organisation in high ranking capacities, and became well and truly respected in the Sangha. This is the lived experience I speak from, and I can explain mindfulness in that sense.



People here want me to be wrong, but the very idea that I'm wrong or right misses the point. If the mind is 'making wrong' 'making right' and generating that argument, the point is to know that's what you are doing.



If I was being right I'd just back it up with Buddhist philosophy and drop cut and pastes from the sky, but that's only using dogma to persuade people and it missed the point. The point is you have to see if what I say is consistent and adds up, and if it seems consistent, check to see if it's true in you, and the way in which it is true. I'm not saying what I say is true.



No matter it's true in you or not, the conversation arrives back at self awareness. You can't understand anything without that, but if ever you want to question some aspect of mindful meditation, I can explain it

[running]

Originally Posted by Gem

The concerns I express are with desire aversion craving reactivity.



Despite the argument from the experts, the realty is, I studied meditation in the formal setting and undertook the hard yards of formal practice. I refined the meditation to a quite subtle degree. I served the organisation in high ranking capacities, and became well and truly respected in the Sangha. This is the lived experience I speak from, and I can explain mindfulness in that sense.



People here want me to be wrong, but the very idea that I'm wrong or right misses the point. If the mind is 'making wrong' 'making right' and generating that argument, the point is to know that's what you are doing.



If I was being right I'd just back it up with Buddhist philosophy and drop cut and pastes from the sky, but that's only using dogma to persuade people and it missed the point. The point is you have to see if what I say is consistent and adds up, and if it seems consistent, check to see if it's true in you, and the way in which it is true. I'm not saying what I say is true.



No matter it's true in you or not, the conversation arrives back at self awareness. You can understand anything without that, but if ever you want to question some aspect of mindful meditation, I can explain it

sorry gem. thought you quoted my last post. responding to.

[running]

Originally Posted by Gem

The concerns I express are with desire aversion craving reactivity.



Despite the argument from the experts, the realty is, I studied meditation in the formal setting and undertook the hard yards of formal practice. I refined the meditation to a quite subtle degree. I served the organisation in high ranking capacities, and became well and truly respected in the Sangha. This is the lived experience I speak from, and I can explain mindfulness in that sense.



People here want me to be wrong, but the very idea that I'm wrong or right misses the point. If the mind is 'making wrong' 'making right' and generating that argument, the point is to know that's what you are doing.



If I was being right I'd just back it up with Buddhist philosophy and drop cut and pastes from the sky, but that's only using dogma to persuade people and it missed the point. The point is you have to see if what I say is consistent and adds up, and if it seems consistent, check to see if it's true in you, and the way in which it is true. I'm not saying what I say is true.



No matter it's true in you or not, the conversation arrives back at self awareness. You can understand anything without that, but if ever you want to question some aspect of mindful meditation, I can explain it

try this again. lol. thanks for explaining.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by running

as i have mentioned before there could be times that craving bliss could push the it away. moments in the grand scheme of it all. the main agenda behind behind the concern is utter nonsense. stupidity. ignorance. propoganda in its purest form. bliss and silence dissolves what some call karma. emotions and thoughts get scooped up as they arrise and put to bed. that is the gravitational pull that keeps one centered. you either doing it through effort. or by bliss and silence.

We usually deal with aversion in early stages while the novice experiences discomfort from sitting up for a long time. Durng this early period a novice learns how their adverse reactivity to unpleasant feeling causes a lot of unnecessary suffering. They also realise that this is what they've been doing all their lives, and how they've spread that misery by throwing it on others.


It doesn't take long for a novice to cease that reactivity and have equanimity of mind while experiencing significant discomfort. They learn about what their mind is doing, and stop doing that.


In Buddhist philosophy, craving is the desire for it not to be the way it is: aversion. And the desire for something more pleasant: what we think of as desire. The word 'craving' means both aversion and desire, and these are not differentiated in Buddhist thought. It's the same coin (called tanha).


By observing the breath, the mind is honed sharp, so the meditator starts to experience subtle levels of the body as tingles, flows waves and so on, which are pleasant feelings. This involves the other side of the coin as people crave these feelings and try to make it as they want it to be. It's still early days, but the novice is told to treat subtle feelings the same way they treat discomfort. Also to examine all feelings very closely to see how they arise, change, pass away. This way they start to understand impermanence insightfully and complete the way of practice: ardent awareness free of aversion and craving with understanding of impermanence.



Later on, probably after undertaking a few lengthy retreats, the body starts to open up and a wonderful free flow becomes the experience. But because they trained properly in earlier stages, the tendency for craving has waned and the skill of observing with equanimity is quite well established. However, craving with desire is the main issue at this point in the process, and the practice is not to try to generate a subtle flow, but to see the feeling is changing changing changing, and return to ardent awareness sans aversions and desires. It makes sense to the meditator because thay can feel a flow in some of the body and dense, painful feelings in another part, and see themselves entering craving for the flow along with averson toward the density at the same time - They see the whole coin and understand what the mind is doing.


At this stage of the game, the philosophical teachings turn to how the craving/aversion perpetuates 'rebirth' and the kammic process. It's important to get the get the craving under control here, because a more stable equanimity of mind will be required for what is to come. Hence, the practice remains the same. Ardent awareness free of aversion and craving with thorough understanding of impermanence.



The next phase things can speed up to a real rush, and keeping a stable mind will be all they can do, because the rush is as much as koala can bear. It gets intense and it won't let up, and there's nothing you can do to make it stop - and they learn, 'energy' feelings are not desirable at all...


What I say takes craving away and without craving what would it be like? It's not scary because you lose craving. It's scary because you lose the whole structure of 'making it as I want' - that entire mechanism of control.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

This is what I was saying, and when I studied meditation there is a lot of caution around craving bliss or whatever feelings anyone might have, and the practice is always awareness without craving no matter what the experience is.


In my experience what I call heart opening is a different thing from drect contact with the outpouring, and people can have blocked up hearts and directly contact the outpouring. The outpouring regards 'as you are now', so with all the blocks and issues a person might have, that's the way they are.


What I'd call heart opening is when pure love starts to bubble up, usually in the chest area. I guess it is how the outpouring comes through the mind/body and it requires a small degree of purification - but the diresct contact doesn't require anything. It's just noticed. There s no fanfare. Its neutral, like, 'oh, that'. As if you noticed a bowl of porridge on the table - it ain't no chocolate cake - no 'wow factor'.




One step. Stop and look.

Don't stop, don't look, just let it flow and continue what you are doing.