Muscle Tension During Meditation

[jonesboy]

Edit:Old response that just now showed up. Please ignore.

[LadyMay]

Automatic yoga, yes. Nothing crazy though.. only the muscles tensing up. My own automatic yoga is the full package. I have NO idea what I'm doing. I just give my body twenty minutes a day.. it goes crazy with asanas, lol.

[sunsoul]

I don't think it has anything to do with kundalini as popularly described. It is more than likely bodily sensations and nothing to worry about!

Of course, it would be better to be meditating in a group and to also receive guidance from a teacher face-to-face.

I have said this before but really kundalini practice has nothing to do with regular meditation. I think this is something of a misconception among people. If you are practising this type of meditation that is fine. However, I know hundreds of people who have meditated and there is no kundalini experience as described in popular discourse.. There doesn't have to be anything crazy going on to be clear.

[LadyMay]

Yeah, it doesn't sound like kundalini to me. Just activity that is commonly associated with awakening kundalini.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by sunsoul

The part about intentionally shortening or lengthening the breath I have never seen or had any Buddhist teacher teach. That is in Hindu yoga practice as part of pranayama (pre-meditative exercises).

If you have actual references for that I would be interested in seeing them.

Interesting interpretation from that teacher. Based on the several Bhikkhus of whose teachings I am familiar with, I would say that more teachers instruct to manipulate the breath than don't.

Here are instructions from Bhikkhu Buddhadasa:

We have come to the first lesson, the first step, namely, the contemplation of the long breath. We are able to
breathe long whenever we need to. We have learned how to make the breath long and how to keep it long. In this first
lesson, we will study the long breath exclusively. We study the nature of, all the facts about, the long breaths. When a
breath is long, how pleasant is it? How natural and ordinary is it? What kinds of calmness and happiness are involved?
In what ways is it different than a short breath? This means that we now study just the long breath using the method
described above, to find out its properties, qualities, influence, and flavor. Only study the long breath here. Sit and
investigate the long breath exclusively. This is lesson one, understanding all matters connected to the long breathing

We have now completed the first lesson, which is about the long breath. We can move on to the second lesson, that
concerning the short breath. We really do not have to say much about this step, because it is practiced in exactly the same way as with the long breath. The only difference is that step two, the second lesson, uses the short breath.
Whatever we learned about the long breath, we must learn the equivalent facts about the short breath.

To summarize these first steps: it is possible to regulate, control, limit, and manage the emotions by using the breath.
We can make the emotions correct, useful, and beneficial through the breath. Through our knowledge of the breath we
develop the ability to control the breath itself. If we can train the breathing then we can control the emotions, that is,
cope with the happiness and pain of our lives. Practice until you can feel this. Your practice is not complete if you
cannot see this clearly.

When you are sitting in meditation and a mosquito bites you, you develop an evil emotion. How can you get rid of it?
The way to drive it away is to improve the breath. Make it long, make it fine, make it chase that wicked emotion away.
This is the best way to solve the problems.

(Source: http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Br eathing.htm)

From Thanissaro Bhikkhu's instructions:

Try changing the rhythm and texture of the breath. Experiment with different ways
of breathing to see how they feel. You can make the breath shorter or longer. You can try
short in and long out, or long in and short out. You can try faster breathing or slower
breathing. Deeper or more shallow. Heavier or lighter. Broader or more narrow. When you
find a rhythm that feels good, stick with it as long as it feels good. If, after a while, it
doesn’t feel good, you can adjust the breath again.
Simply pose the question in the mind each time you breathe in: “What kind of breath
would feel especially gratifying right now?” See how your body responds.

(Source: http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/W...th_v130123.pdf)

From Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo's instructions:

If, when you're sitting, you aren't yet able to observe the breath, tell yourself, "Now I'm going to breathe in. Now I'm going to breathe out." In other words, at this stage you're the one doing the breathing. You're not letting the breath come in and out as it naturally would. If you can keep this in mind each time you breathe, you'll soon be able to catch hold of the breath.
...
Learn four ways of adjusting the breath:

a. in long and out long,
b. in long and out short,
c. in short and out long,
d. in short and out short.
Breathe whichever way is most comfortable for you. Or, better yet, learn to breathe comfortably all four ways, because your physical condition and your breath are always changing.
...
Knowing various ways of improving the breath; breathing, for example, in long and out long, in short and out short, in short and out long, in long and out short, until you come across the breath most comfortable for you: This is Right Action.

(Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

In the breath meditation, it's the same as the sutta. Feel air at the nostrils, (but I since refined that, took a bit of practice, and now feel on the tip of the upper lip). That's it. There are various intricacies to that kind of practice which I can state and give reason for... but your convictions will be contradicted.

The extension of that is body sensation, which I noticed was in the sutta as well, but that practice has some underpinning fundamentals that need to be understood... which might contradict what the ordained might say as well.

You are not speaking of another practice per say, but rather, a different interpretation of the same practice.

There is actually much debate as to whether the interpretation of focusing awareness on the nostrils is correct, or even conductive to the practice.

According to my research, the general consensus of teachers and practitioners are against it, not only because of the linguistic evidence against that particular translation, but also because it produces a state of one-pointed concentration to the exclusion of all other areas of experience within the body and mind, which directly opposes the purpose of satipatthana and anapanasati, as it closes off awareness and thus insight into everything outside of one's concentration on that one tiny particular area of the body.

I am aware of the intricacies of such methods of one-pointed awareness, conceptually anyway. The many teachers and practitioners that I know of who have followed that method and eventually came to reject it have helped me avoid potentially wasted effort practicing in this way.

Regarding your statement that there are prerequisite fundamentals of the expansion of body sensations that contradict the teachings of the ordained, I would be interested in hearing the details.

The most fundamental part is to be observant of what happens to be, and do not regulate the breath or conjure anything. No will power should be used to affect any change. Only be aware of what occurs spontaneously. There are good reasons for that which I can explain, which will apparently contradict your convictions.

You have already shared one reason, which I believe I effectively addressed with evidence from the teachings. If you believe you have more, feel free to share. My convictions are in the teachings and my experience in following the teachings, and the two have yet to contradict one another.

I learned the Buddhist meditations in the formal sense under monastic conditions, and stick to the fundamentals of that, but what I have to say about the practice comes directly from my experience in the meditation. My practice disregards anything that isn't conducive gaining insight into the nature of the mind, and because it comes from the insight I gleaned in practice, I can give reason to explain every aspect of that practice. I'm happy to talk about the practice with ordained monks and read suttas and anything that you suggest, but I'm not accepting authority and am not prepared to communicate on uneven grounds.

I am very curious as to where you were taught. If I were to guess, I'd say you attended a ten-day Vipassana retreat, based on everything you have said thus far.

I understand that your views on the practice come from your experience, but being that your experience is limited, especially in the sense that Vipassana is only a part of the teachings and was never taught to be separated as it's own practice, and you are unfamiliar with the teachings from which your practice originates from, teachings that are crucial to understand to put the practice into perspective and ensure one is going in the right direction, there is a whole lot of room for error, both in practice and view. In other words, I don't believe your views can be trusted as of yet, for you currently only hold one piece of the puzzle. But this is just my opinion, going off of what you have said up until now. It is not meant to be a judgement, but as a perspective that you may benefit from if you honestly take it into consideration.

Take care

[sunsoul]

In that sutta I gave the link to above there is no mention of manipulating the breath. It is always natural breathing and I have been on a few retreats and been with various teachers over the years.

I am interested in the information that you presented, though. I think I am going to raise it as a topic on dhammawheel or a similar site.

[sunsoul]

To be fair, Vince, on a number of occasions (the nostril/one pointedness issue and the shortening/lengthening breath point) you are really talking about differing perspectives and interpretations of something and not a real definite way of doing something 'rightly' or 'wrongly'....

[jonesboy]

Here is a nice energy practice taught by the Kagyu Lineage of Tibetan Buddhism.

OM AH HUNG Vajra Recitation Instructions and Practice

Rinpoche will give teachings on the uniqueness and preciousness of the OM AH HUNG Vajra Recitation and how it helps our meditation practice. All mantras are contained within OM AH HUNG, and the Vajra Recitation of these seed syllables is an excellent method for maintaining awareness first given by Lord Jigten Sumgon, founder of the Drikung Kagyu lineage. Rinpoche also will give instructions on how to do the recitation and practice it with us.

Rinpoche on the OM AH HUNG Vajra Recitation: "Whenever we are trying to stabilize meditation we can also work with our breath energy. It is said that mind and the subtle energies of the winds are mixed; the wind energy is like the horse and the mind is like its rider. That is to say, all types of thought forms and so forth are mounted on the subtle wind energies. We can stabilize these wind energies by the mental recitation of the syllables OM AH HUNG in conjunction with the breath. We breathe in through the nostrils mentally reciting OM, briefly hold the breath at the navel mentally reciting AH, and exhale through the mouth mentally reciting HUNG. This helps to stabilize the wind energies and pacify the many thoughts that arise in the mind. Until we reach the state where we can sit down and engage in very stable, clear, one-pointed meditation at will, we need to practice in this way."

Rinpoche further instructs: "For the OM AH HUNG Vajra Recitation you inhale air thinking OM, then the air moves down to below your navel. When it reaches the navel, you think AH. Below the navel visualize a small hot flame. When the inhaled breath meets with the flame, it fans it and makes it burn stronger. Eventually you will experience warmth in your navel area. When you exhale the air think HUNG. Since you are always breathing, with each breath you take you can practice OM AH HUNG. You do not need to visualize or pronounce the syllables; just think OM AH HUNG. The syllables are just a support for single-pointed dwelling. Once the mind is still, you can let go of the OM and HUNG and just focus single-pointedly on the AH-flame.

"You should do this practice at any time and especially before falling asleep. If you fall asleep with such concentrated awareness, you will eventually recognize the dream state and be fully aware while sleeping. When awareness develops further you will become clear and aware even during the deep sleep state. This Dream Yoga is part of the Six Yogas of Naropa

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by sunsoul

In that sutta I gave the link to above there is no mention of manipulating the breath. It is always natural breathing and I have been on a few retreats and been with various teachers over the years.

I am interested in the information that you presented, though. I think I am going to raise it as a topic on dhammawheel or a similar site.

The link you provided was not to the sutta, but rather was a commentary on the sutta, although there were some quotes from the sutta scattered throughout the commentary.

Here is the actual sutta : http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....118.than.html

The first two steps of the sutta are what is in question here:

[1]Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.'

Truthfully, the sutta doesn't say whether the breath should be natural, or if one should consciously breathe in long and short. However, the latter makes the most sense in my opinion. Why? Because if the sutta is meant to be practiced in order of the steps described, which most teachers believe is the case, and the first step is to discern the long breath, then if the natural breath is not long, one cannot even begin the meditation. The same goes with the short breath- if the natural breath is not short, one cannot complete the second step.

I don't necessarily see a problem if one switches steps 1 and 2, discerning the short breath first rather than after the long breath. But even still, if one naturally breaths long, then there will never be a short breath to discern and the meditation cannot be completed in line with the sutta's instructions UNLESS one consciously breathes short.

Of course, it is possible that the suttas instructions are aimed at discerning the length of the breath in general and the breath doesn't necessarily have to be long or short. It could be somewhere in between, for instance. The teachers I follow believe the long and short breath is to be fabricated, however, so that is the method that I implore.

I have seen a couple threads of a similar nature over at the Wheel in the past, but I'd be interested to see the responses that come in! Go for it!

Take care