Yoga=evil?

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by mattie

Their beliefs are no more valid than mine.

How do you know this is true? Have you received some revelation from God telling you that all beliefs are equally valid?

Originally Posted by amira

I don't see anything evil on doing yoga instead I see a good benefits of it such as being calm, keeping our mind relaxed and having a good posture.

If you are doing yoga with only these aims in mind then you may perform yoga exercises but you are not really doing yoga.

[Jyotir]

predawn said

Technically, the Christian's devotion is to God, who is "wholly other" to use Martin Buber's (a well-known Christian theologian) wording.

In Eastern religions and practices God is "I". "Thou art that". In this forum it is often expressed as "I am God".

How could the idea of "God, the wholly other" and "I am God" ever be reconciled?

From a dualistic perspective, and Christianity today is inherently dualistic, the devotion is thus effectively to oneself. This is what makes it evil in their view.

One can of course strip Yoga, Tai Chi and other martial arts from their spiritual content and reduce them to to something akin to gym exercises. However, if one does that one does not really practice Yoga or Tai Chi, no matter how well the movements or postures are executed. All eastern practices address the whole spirit-mind-body complex at all times. Separating them would be going against the most fundamental principles on which they are based.
For Christians, performing the activities is OK, getting involved with the mindset behind the activities is not. Unfortunately, in the long run, such separation cannot be maintained and interest in such practices must be nipped in the bud as soon as possible, lest your soul will be lost.

Hi predawn,

Your post represents an accurate outline - at least to my own pov based on experiences with fellow seekers.
I think you have correctly identified that one of the key determinants affecting either the fruitfulness or futility of such discussions is the basic orientation of the individual or group vis-à-vis dualism vs non-dualism.

My extended pov:

If God is separate from the Creation and superior to it, then certain processes and conclusions would likely or necessarily follow which would be 'wholly other' to those which would derive from a non-dualist or monist p.o.v.. For instance, a non-dualist might say, "I Am Sugar". But a dualist - and bhakti/devotion to the Lord implies some degree of dualism, might say rather, "I want to taste Sugar".

Although I realize your question illustrative of the major issue is rhetorical:
Both approaches are valid, and for me they can easily be reconciled in a few ways:
First, the different orientations of God seeking/discovery are simply partial approaches through different ASPECTS of God, Who/Which is the TOTALITY of all qualities of Consciousness. Human beings choose approaches to these various Aspects and call them 'this path' or 'that religion', 'this' or 'that' Yoga - but they are all manifestations of a stupendous process of God in the Ignorant physical becoming aware of Himself through the evolution of individual (self) consciousness within and through the finite temporal existence, and God generously supports this multiplicity. Reciprocally, we as individuals get to become aware of our Immortal, Infinite, Eternal Consciousness through this evolutionary process in our own lives, eg., we do not remain static, in ignorance indefinitely (although sometimes it's hard to discern!) This means that life is an unfathomable blessing - not a curse.

Through a free-will that is part of this scheme, we choose those means which suit our temperament, circumstance, evolutionary standard and so on - to explore, experience and discover subjectively, our True Nature which is temporarily concealed within a Cosmic Ignorance ('original sin') - eg: we are temporarily unconscious of our True Origin and Nature - but all choices - good, bad and ugly - serve a purpose relative to the acquired consciousness of the one utilizing any orientation, scheme or method to progress in the present moment. This is why "truth is One - paths are many." The 'Cosmic Dance' of this activity is a kind of perfection in and of itself (see 'Shiva Nataraj'), because all choices in and of the multiplicity are supplied in and through a dynamic interdependence of individual lives within the physical Totality (Universe).

Historically, it has been very difficult, even prohibitively so, to enact the processes and requirements of each of the different 'Yogas', even generalized ones, in one single life-path simultaneously (especially so if one believes in reincarnation), and this is why there have been different paths and traditions that came out of group accumulation of similar major approaches to Self (God)-discovery, including and obviously those of cultural and geographic origin, often initiated by some key spiritual figure(s) who's personal achievement became a model or major contribution.

In a globalizing world where all kinds of boundaries are falling, it is imo significant that a new approach has been suggested and why I often recommend taking a look at Sri Aurobindo's work - the 'Integral Yoga', which imo is a consummate expression of the merging of Eastern and Western approaches. Aurobindo says that all these different orientations and approaches do not have to be divided up and argued about or excluded, because to do so, is to in essence artificially divide up and exclude aspects of oneself. This is because as human beings, we inherently embody the inner potentials and outer possibilities of all the Aspects and Attributes of God within the microcosm of a single human life (God created man in His own Image).

Previously, according to evolutionary necessity, it was imperative to single out one attribute/orientation/aspect simply as a necessary expedient - to pursue God-becoming in one specific way (whichever door one chooses, one still gets in the house) and this has been the origin of the different religions and yogas. Human beings have been inclined to choose and follow one main approach to explore, experience and even 'finalize' - 'realizing God' through it. It works, but it necessarily excludes other possibilities resident within the being, because all those possibilities represent available attributes of God embodied as potential within each microcosm, each life. So someone might 'realize God' through 'devotion', but yet not experience fully the 'wisdom' avenue, or the 'service' avenue, etc. which are equally available within the being.

Significantly, a major and immediate predecessor of Sri Aurobindo, Sri Ramakrishna deliberately set out to realize God through all major traditions just to prove the validity of each path, and claimed to be successful in demonstrating this was possible. He even went so far as to wear the garments typical of the culture/region when engaged in these practices. Like with Jesus, many contemporaries thought Ramakrishna was insane. (The story of Ramakrishna is told in the "Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna", and jmo, it perhaps represents in some ways - maybe not in form, but in feeling and substance - an essential portrayal of the life of Jesus Christ that is available to the current era)

With the Integral Yoga, even the inertia and ignorance of the physical body - the metaphysical self-similar corollary of the macrocosm, the Universe - which is dependent on, and recipient to 'higher' forces - plays a key role in the fuller expression of the inherent Divinity of each human life. The body is not a sinful condition to be escaped from (thus separating and dis-integrating the comprehensive being), but the vehicle of its own transformation. Nothing is excluded in process. God is not separate. God is within all attributes, possibilities and processes of consciousness expansion/discovery within and through ALL parts of being - and becomes functionally integral to all aspects and processes in the Integral Yoga.

There is a very significant group implication for this approach too. The acceptance of all paths becomes easier because practitioners experience them directly through this process internally and therefore they are not extrinsic to one's social interactions. One sees in others what has been directly experienced in oneself. Oneness is expedited by a comprehensive internal integration. Therefore it becomes a useless waste of time to argue that "devotional approach is best", "non-dualism is best", "tantra is best", 'this' or 'that' religion is best - and others are "wrong" or "evil". They are ALL the best, ALL available, and ALL viable within the single life. Otherwise and unfortunately, what we often see are people applying some limitation to the comprehensive whole for the sake of expediency, and then ignorantly condemning others for apparent differences in form - even when content and goals may be the same.

Human beings are both dual and non-dual simultaneously - why demand one as superior (when it is not true) when it is only a matter of temporal focus within a greater context (that context being an illimitable Totality)? And that also means that the physical is not permanently inferior or functionally separate from a superiorly distant (unapproachable) God, making the Creation an incomprehensible perpetual sin-a-thon - - but the physical/Nature, although temporarily Ignorant, is an evolving part of God Himself as Herself, the Universal Mother, the executive creative principle in action, through infinite possibility within the multiplicity of individual lives. Matter is Spirit in becoming. Spirit is Matter in Being. This principle is also the basis of true healing, something Jesus Christ also demonstrated.


~ J


____________________________

"In God's providence there is no evil, but only good or its preparation." - Sri Aurobindo

[Jyotir]

theophilus said:

If yoga really brought about a union with God it wouldn't be evil. The problem is, it can't bring about such a union because it fails to deal with the reason we are separated from God in the first place, and that is the fact that we are all sinners and a holy God can have nothing to do with sin. It can actually do harm by making people think they are experiencing union with God when if fact they are not.

With all due respect, theophilus, if a Holy God has nothing to do with sin, that would seem to render any spirituality a useless waste of time. This is something I personally can't use.

it can't bring about such a union because it fails to deal with the reason we are separated from God in the first place

The failure here seems to be in a misunderstanding of what 'Yoga' is and what 'Yoga' does.

This is actually what all true Yoga is and does:
It is any practice that transforms the false perception of a separation from God.
It deals only with that - first, foremost and final.

My view:
We are not separate from God. We never have been and we never will be. God is experiencing everything in and through our lives. We are God - only what is mistaken as 'separation' is merely an ignorance of Consciousness. We discover this intrinsic potential Identity incrementally through the process of life, eg. - "All life is Yoga" - in the Here and Now (not in the 'hereafter' when it is too late!!).

The entire purpose of 'yoga' is to accomplish this transformation for each human life in a deliberate and accelerated fashion. An example of a practice which accelerates this process (Union with God) - is prayer, either as an essential or adjunct of some yoga practice, but please note (as you must well know): not all prayers lead to God. Prayer itself is not "good" or "evil" - it is how, why and for what one prays, which determines its efficacy in terms of God approach. This is the same with yoga. AND... If it leads to God - it is yoga. Simple. Who determines this? Each practitioner and God within. That is what life is for - the subjective experience of God.

If we are sinners, then God is the original sinner because God created Everything. God not only created the conditions of "sin" (ignorance) but is that sin - in order for opportunity of individual free-will and God-discovery to be generated through infinite possibilities in the multiplicity of Creation. God is the very 'material' of a Cosmic Ignorance (original sin) - in evolution. (imo) This is why Jesus often showed humility and deference to 'sinners' - because He saw them as God. All 'sin' is an ignorance of inherent divinity - but this is not permanent. All life is consciousness in evolution. It starts in ignorance (sin = activity based in ignorance) and evolves to conscious God-hood, as Jesus, one of the greatest Yogi's demonstrated.

That is what yoga is - a personal revolution within a general evolution - the individual acceleration and concentration of tendencies that are already present within Nature. Separation from God, sin etc. is a religious construct based on a limited distortion taken as the whole truth - an ignorant perception based on a functional ignorance. Included in this incomplete distorted 'truth' is a repulsion from what appears to be 'sin' - darkness, imperfection, ignorance - even though God created, loves and IS that very process of transformation and fulfillment in and through all of life which itself is a form and demonstration of Love. It is all God-becoming that God supports and allows - unconditionally.

We cannot transform this ignorance if we are repelled by it and separate from it - or if we are separate from the very means of that transformation. We really can't separate ourselves from ourselves and God anyway - that would be the 'house divided' Jesus spoke of - but by pretending we are and can, we eliminate the possibility of this transformation. That is the origin of the "separation" which we choose that dis-allows divinity to evolve WITHIN our lives keeping it "separate" unapproachable and unrecognizable.

This imo, is the true meaning of Jesus Christ's story - it is God (Divinity) Who condescends to die in mortal life - is Crucified in ignorant Matter as the ultimate Sacrifice of Full Consciousness into Ignorance and Inconscience so that all lives might discover their own divinity. This is the Christ symbol, promise, and potential. Divinity is there, present within each life (God Immanent) yet concealed, but we choose to call this imperfection 'sin' and distance ourselves from it thereby preventing its transformation into a more recognizable divinity, one we only allow ourselves to see in an abstract removed unattainable Form. Jesus Christ made Divinity human precisely to show what is possible - not to prove the greatness of God in contrast to an unworthy and permanently sinful nature.

Life isn't about darkness, suffering and confusion without God on Earth - followed by eternal rest and infinite comfort with God in Heaven. (or even more suffering and eternal damnation for the 'less fortunate'). One could say, that is the dangerous half-truth that has been inculcated into a self-perpetuating monumental institutional edifice which fails to address the reasons, maintains the human condition as weak and insecure and which does the harm because it obscures the true hidden divine nature of life and humanity. But even that incomplete and unsatisfactory definition is part of the process and a stepping stone.

Dualism has its necessary attributes, assets and liabilities. It is the basis of some approaches to God which may be valid and viable for those practitioners who choose its various forms, but since it does not represent the entire set of possible approaches, it would be an error to exclude other possibilities as invalid - especially based on the liabilities of that one one specific approach. Much social and interpersonal disharmony, (even seen on forums such as this) - are simply [i]insistent[i] projections of these distortions - demands or defenses - that apply the assets or liabilities of inherent chosen limitation as a means of comparison (and condemnation) of other just as "flawed" (incomplete) expedient views or practices. History is filled with unfortunate real-world examples of this principle, including and especially as applied to religious versions.

However...

Life could also be seen as an opportunity for the divinization of Earth - through each life to discover God within - and to become God in action - in outward manifestation on the physical plane. ("...not my will, but Thine be done" / "...on Earth as it is in Heaven...") Does this mean a perpetual weakness (sin) feebly submitting to an unapproachable separate all-powerful autocrat? Or surrendering joyfully in Oneness to something Loving that we all share and are?

Universal possibility, individual achievement, collective promise. Jesus Christ supposedly said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you."
That either means something (especially as a possibility for discovery) or it is an empty promise and a falsehood. He also supposedly said, "I and my Father are One" - an immortal unfathomable achievement, the remarkable fulfillment of that possibility and potential. Of course in His case, the harm done was when He was murdered for making such "blasphemous" claims. In those days, and even still it is prevalent orthodoxy that 'God is separate from His Creation' ("people think they are experiencing union with God when if fact they are not".**) To this day the persecution of genuine forms of spirituality through the same ignorant half truths and falsehoods persist.

Jesus Christ was a proof, prototype and promise that God is not separate, and He further indicated as much with..."Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these..." The genuine enactment of this promise through any life is called by some "Yoga".

There are definitely legitimate forms of Yoga that may not be consistent with any particular religion, including some forms of Christianity (and even these religions do not constitute monolithic groupings). However, that does not necessarily mean that they are 'evil' in nature. Conferring 'evil' status to any authentic legitimate viable practice which leads to God simply because it utilizes different means, is undoubtedly a serious spiritual error, the examination of which may lead to greater insight into the failings of one's own beliefs or practice.

**(wondering (?) how theophilus knows factually, directly - what is in the lives, minds and hearts of his fellow human beings, especially with regard to their God experiences and the validity and authenticity of same.)

My own feeling is that when someone thinks of God, invokes God, experiences Divine Love, asks for Forgiveness, or offers gratitude to God, etc, etc., . these are all - even if incomplete, imperfect, discontinuous and impermanent - forms of God union. Imo, for me, as a practical expedient - it seems more fruitful to frame and pursue life experience in this positive context rather that the negative, which is that 'everything' is sin, 'everyone' is a sinner. That is a deep dark hole that is hard to climb out of, and it therefore becomes fitting (metaphorically and actually) for death to be the resolution of that problem of the material temporal life (again, ignoring the promise demonstrated by Jesus). The thing is - by then (death) it's too late to do anything about life. But that depends on what one believes is the purpose and potential of life, and what means are available with which to live that life.

Is Jesus is merely the definitive proxy for a separate unapproachable unloving vengeful God, or is He an example and demonstration of what is possible for human beings? (<--- my rhetorical Q's because I have come to my own conclusions --->) Jesus Christ did reveal these things. Why obscure and distort His Teachings, for the benefit of sin? That is the perpetuation of ignorance for its own sake - - not for its transformation into divinity, which is available through many different practices some refer to as 'Yoga'. 'Evil' is not synonymous with 'non-Christian' or 'un-Christian'. The Christ principle is within ALL as the Vehicle and the Destination, eg., Yoga/Union.

Jmo, fwiw.

~ J

[theophilus]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

theophilus said:This is actually what all true Yoga is and does:
It is any practice that transforms the false perception of a separation from God.
It deals only with that - first, foremost and final.

That is the reason Yoga is evil. It teaches that our consciousness of being separated from God is a false perception.

Suppose a person has appendicitis and goes to a doctor. The doctor tells him the pain he is feeling is merely a false perception and gives him medicine to deaden it. Is that doctor being good or evil? He is treating the patient's pain in the same way yoga treats our awareness of separation from God. A good doctor would recognize the pain as being a symptom of a real problem and would perform surgery to remove the source of the problem.

Originally Posted by theophilus

How do you know this is true? Have you received some revelation from God telling you that all beliefs are equally valid?

Are we supposed to imagine that only those having particular beliefs are able to discern these Universal truths??? Or one tribe?

Originally Posted by amira

I don't see anything evil on doing yoga instead I see a good benefits of it such as being calm, keeping our mind relaxed and having a good posture.

Neither do most people. Because it isn't evil.

Originally Posted by pre-dawn

If you are doing yoga with only these aims in mind then you may perform yoga exercises but you are not really doing yoga.

It is OK to do yoga for the benefit of the exercises.

Even if one chooses to delve further into yoga philosophy, one has the option of selecting what makes sense to them & declining what doesn’t.

Originally Posted by pre-dawn

Technically, the Christian's devotion is to God, who is "wholly other" to use Martin Buber's (a well-known Christian theologian) wording.

In Eastern religions and practices God is "I". "Thou art that". In this forum it is often expressed as "I am God".

How could the idea of "God, the wholly other" and "I am God" ever be reconciled?

From a dualistic perspective, and Christianity today is inherently dualistic, the devotion is thus effectively to oneself. This is what makes it evil in their view.
...

Christianity has always had the view of God being very separate. In its earliest years the Gnostic sect may have had a different view that was more in keeping w/ the ancient mystery & earth religions, but this group lost out to the Literalists millennia ago.

There is no need to reconcile organized religion’s dualistic, separated God w/ other views of God where people relate to God as ‘I’ or that ‘I am God.’ There are many beliefs of Christianity that are problematic to others such as our being inherently flawed sinners & being empty vessels, only able to accept the gift of God’s glory, incapable of being the manager of our own spiritual journey. This religion has the right to hold whatever views the want, be dogmatic about having a take it or leave it attitude, & watch as people walk out of the door, never to return. Those who are trying to preserve these religions may want to reconcile these views to try to regain their rapidly departing flock, but I doubt that many who’ve left are interested in returning, even if rigid views are modified. Some more flexible forms of Christianity are forming, but as long as they have the view that we are inherently flawed & incapable of generating the impetus for our own spiritual journey they remain highly problematic.

The new age view of ‘I am God’ is that we are all connected energetically & all manifestations of a continually expanding Universe. This usually discards the view of God being a single deity, micromanaging the Universe & our lives in favor of the Universe being an integrated vital whole organism w/ many layers. The phrase, ‘I am God’ is shorthand for this. There is, of course, a vast difference from being an interconnected part of the Universe & being at the 12D (1-12D) level of the Universe or the energies that are called God.

If a Hindu went to a Christian church and sang the songs, enjoyed the sermon and the people that does not mean he has become a Christian. Anymore than you going to a yoga class means you have become Hindu. Everything is what you make it. If as a christian you want to go and enjoy a yoga class you can do that without having to change your beliefs.