unconditional love, regardless of others' ignorance

[sound]

Originally Posted by Xan

Unfortunately I seem to be the rough-weave type.

Xan

I dont feel that is unfortunate :)

[Xan]

Thanks, Kate... and you're right. The way I am is not always liked, but fine.


Xan

Originally Posted by arive nan

I am an example of the result of when some insist that awareness has to be a certain way in order to be valid, or acceptable, or in order for the experiencer to be acceptable.

I see people who happen to feel love during the experience accused of being manipulative because they communicate about it, accused of trying to impose their version on others, accused of having sneaky underhanded agendas, ridiculed because XY and Z are part of the universe and they are horrible things that don't seem like love at all and how can someone be so invalid and [insert more negative things here] as to have an experience a feeling of love everywhere when there are bad things in the world, and they shouldn't use the word "love" no matter how much the feeling is just like love to them, that's the wrong word to use and if you use it it means you are attached to words and you're doing bad things to other people by using that word.... I could go on...

It got to me. That idea that if that feeling of love is involved it is wrong and it means I am wrong and all those bad things would apply to me... it got to me. Part of me actually started believing that the feeling of that love means I am doing something wrong and that it means I am a bad person for being one of the people who feel that. And that part of me would step in and stop me from opening myself up to that awareness. I wouldn't allow myself to see it or feel it because part of me became convinced that the love means I am doing it wrong all those bad things about people who feel it would apply to me and I don't want to be a bad person...

So I have to dig up that part of my subconscious and un-convince myself of these beliefs. That means embracing the belief that the way the experience is for me is valid even though that love always happens to be a part of it and even though some would vehemently object to that. The love just happens to be part of the experience for me. I don't try to make it a part of the experience. It simply happens to be a part of the experience for me. If I try to eliminate the feeling from my experience of awareness of what is, I will not experience that awareness. Because if I am trying to eliminate part of it, then I am not opening up to simply being aware of what is. Pushing that part away would mean not allowing myself to simply be aware of what happens to be. It would mean pushing away a part of what my awareness happens to open up to when I am aware of what is. So of course I wouldn't be able to be aware of what is while doing that.

I had been feeling that love all along during my experiences before coming to SF and when the subject came up and people asked me what it was like I would comfortably use the word "love" simply because that is what it really is like for me. I had no notion that this could be something that some would consider part of a manipulative agenda to impose things on people and etc. I was simply honestly describing what it is really like for me. And that's still what I'm doing now.

But here just using that word when communicating about these experiences results in being categorized in a bad way as a person. It is not the right way to experience awareness according to some. It is not valid according to some. It is not right to communicate about experiences that way according to some. My own words are the wrong words. I shouldn't use my words. I should only use the words that are considered valid and acceptable according to those who feel that if the experience involves a feeling of love being everywhere it is wrong.

It got to me. And I am struggling to make it stop. I am struggling to keep reminding that part of me that is so easily convinced that I am a bad person that it is being ridiculous and that whoever told it that is just incorrect. Awareness shouldn't be this complicated. It was so simple before. I just felt whatever I happened to feel without struggling with any notion that feeling that love means something bad about me. I didn't end up with that problem until I saw people who have felt 'love is all' being regarded the way they are by some here on the basis that they have felt this.

Hi arive nan: I don't know if this post is directed at me, but it could be, if my posts were misinterpreted.. i am a huge fan of love, i find its magic to be among the most healing energies in the Cosmos.. i have deep respect for those that experience 'everything is love', in the same proportions as they have respect for my experiences.. i have made numerous attempts to have reasoned discussions hoping to find a common understanding of the oddly contradictory use of language where people's interpretations of their experiences relate to love, or awareness, or a host of interpretations asserted to be only this or all of that.. in short, some people exclude the opinions of others, even when the opinions of others are seeking a common understanding..

The issues being wrestled with have nothing to do with the profundity of love, that is unmistakable.. it is the practice of diminishing the value of contributions by other members, not just my values, i am capable of handling myself, but.. i see other members' contributions diminished in the same fashion, and they don't have the experience to understand the pain they feel is not their personal inadequacy, it is an intentional process of diminishing self-image and their value to the forum, and it goes like this:

I experience X directly, and X is all there is.. if you don't agree, you haven't experienced X, and so you cannot add value to this discussion.. of course, X is supplemented with quotes by gurus who use exactly the same tactics, and.. X is embellished with brilliant poetry, and group support of the local guru, but.. when faced with sound and well reasoned inquiry, the inquirer(s) are diminished in the same fashion and the group acts to defend the guru and the message.. the real flaw in the process is when the proponents of X are successful at convincing others that logic and reason are incapable of revealing the truth about their beliefs.. the only valid truth of their statements is when they approve of your agreement with them..

The process described above has been successfully used in this forum on numerous occasions, and it robs the inexperienced seeker of their own personal authenticity.. if someone experiences authentic love, i celebrate with them.. but, authentic love is not exclusive, it does not claim sole authority over existence, it is humble and caring..

Be well..

Originally Posted by Tzu

The process described above has been successfully used in this forum on numerous occasions, and it robs the inexperienced seeker of their own personal authenticity.. if someone experiences authentic love, i celebrate with them.. but, authentic love is not exclusive, it does not claim sole authority over existence, it is humble and caring..

The 'those other people's love is not authentic unless it fits these certain criteria' type messages are another example of what I have been talking about... People feel what they feel. There are no degrees of authenticity to that. It is what they feel because it is what they feel. In reality that is the only criteria for feeling something.

My whole life people have been telling me 'you're not really feeling ____. If you were you would be ____.' "I feel sad." "No you don't. If you did you would be crying." "I am depressed lately." "No you aren't. If you were really depressed you wouldn't be here. You would have stayed in bed. People who are genuinely depressed don't get out of bed." What I was feeling wasn't authentic enough for them to consider it real. And that hurt. It hurt so much. I find it painful to have any feeling invalidated like that. And I feel that pain when I see someone who has has felt the same thing I have get invalidated that way.

So when I see people communicate about the same kind of love I have felt only to be told they are not authentic, they are judging others by describing the feeling, they are imposing on others by communicating about it, it's not real or genuine because it does not fit all these criteria.... it is painful for me. I know from how they are describing it that they have felt it. One would not come up with their own descriptions that speak to exactly how it has felt for me unless they have actually felt it. I am in the same boat as them. I am one of them. If they are being treated as inauthentic and etc. because they felt this love but don't meet the strict criteria set by others for its authenticity... I am being treated that way along with them.

I mean, if a public speaker says negative things about women on account of them being women, I am being treated that way along with them because I happen to be a woman. There's no separating out some of the women so that it doesn't apply to them because the negative things are said on account of women being women. I have felt the infinite ocean of love. And believe me I will certainly not fit your criteria for authenticity. So just from that I am among the ones being accused of robbing people of their own personal authenticity.

But I am simply someone who has felt this profound love. I have simply felt it. I know what I have felt. I know it is real to me. But I am not perfect. I am not humble or caring or probably anything else that is a part of the criteria for authenticity. I don't meet the criteria. So does that make what I felt inauthentic no matter how profoundly and intensely real it felt to me? Were my feelings not really felt if I don't meet the criteria of others?

No. My feelings have always been real because they are real to me. I really was sad even though I wasn't crying at the time. I really was depressed even though I pushed myself to get out of bed. I really have felt this unique kind of love that during the experience seems to be everywhere in everything, even though I am not an ideal human being. If I were to believe that what I have felt is really not authentic because I don't fit the criteria set by others, wouldn't that amount to being robbed of personal authenticity? I am going to make a conscious effort not to believe that feeling that ocean of love is only authentic if it meets someone else's criteria. I will believe that those who say they have felt it and describe it in ways that speak to me have actually felt it. The feeling is real to them because they felt it. No other criteria is necessary as far as I am concerned.

Getting slightly back to the topic at hand, I'm still having problems communicating my viewpoint to the world.

I find that a lot of people, and family is the worst, push for answers to the point of interrogation, and then when you give them answers truthfully, they pounce upon them with judgmentalism and critism. Yes I'm different to them, I don't wish to get too involved in society, I don't wish to eat wheat, meat, sugar or processed ****, I don't wish to drink alcohol, I want nothing to do with media, and I've not much interest in talking about sport or the x factor. I've seen through a lot of the conditioning and I'm not obsessed by sex, possesions or money.

There is clearly something I'm doing wrong in the way I communicate myself. But I get to the point where, my family, my girlfriend's familly and just about anyone I come across will just keep asking questions, question after question. I get sick of questions. Sick of explaining myself however many times a day. And when I answer them as truthfully as I can my answers get jumped upon.

I get great waves of compassion and empathy, and unconditional love, but most of the time, after all this what I consider interrogation, judgmentalism, stubborness, arrogance, and down right ignorance, I often just feel like the world can go f*** itself. I feel like becoming a monk to get away from it all.

So yeah, I talk the talk about not dividing love, but I'm not always so capable of it myself. How do I deal with the questions?

1. Don't judge (need to let go 20 fears to do this)
2. Don't trust (accepting that everybody do evil even your friends/family, it is not under their control)
3. Accept that they don't change because you love them (letting go the fear: what if they don't change? They don't change. Accept.)
4. Drop the negative stuff coming from them. They are just noise. (need to let go another 20 fears)

It is all about fear.

3d

Originally Posted by 3dnow

1. Don't judge (need to let 20 fears to do this)
2. Don't trust (accepting that everybody do evil even your friends/family, it is not under their control)
3. Accept that they don't change because you love them (letting go the fear: what if they don't change? They don't change. Accept.)
4. Drop the negative stuff coming from them. They are just noise. (need to let go another 20 fears)

It is all about fear.

3d

Thanks 3dnow that was very helpful. Accepting for me I guess is one of the most difficult things. I find it hard to accept how things are although I'm getting there with it.

What about trust? Do we trust everybody or do we trust nobody, or do we trust who we feel we can trust?

Originally Posted by Charliemcsnarly

Thanks 3dnow that was very helpful. Accepting for me I guess is one of the most difficult things. I find it hard to accept how things are although I'm getting there with it.

What about trust? Do we trust everybody or do we trust nobody, or do we trust who we feel we can trust?

I stick with silence of the soul (the true nature , higher self) absence of all non-sense.

Trusting looks non-sense to me. Trusting means: This person is solid as a rock. He will not do evil. That's not possible.

I think there is no such thing as trust. It is fear. It is naive. (result of some fears)

3d

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Xan

A rare moment of seeing love the same way. Nice.


Xan

It's not nice seeing it a different way.

One has to see it as the guru prescribes it which is done by inventing a story about the two types of love.

First there's 'The Enlightened Love' then there's the one the 'Ignorant love' have.

Anyone who bangs out the capitalized one is 'the same way' and anything other is ignorance.


That's the basic thesis of this thread, which is a discussion topic, not a preacher's podium for 'an enlightened one'.

Originally Posted by Gem

It's not nice seeing it a different way.

One has to see it as the guru prescribes it which is done by inventing a story about the two types of love.

First there's 'The Enlightened Love' then there's the one the 'Ignorant love' have.

Anyone who bangs out the capitalized one is 'the same way' and anything other is ignorance.


That's the basic thesis of this thread, which is a discussion topic, not a preacher's podium for 'an enlightened one'.

So, when someone says there is a better way, different from how you see it, I take it you feel marginalized and used by those who say there is a better way than yours, as proven by the use of a capital letter?