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  #21  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:23 PM
linen53 linen53 is offline
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Taking one tiny pill to calm the screams of my pain is well worth it. I am careful not to become addicted but I do need my opiates to function. Many surgeries later I hope I don't need them anymore but quite honestly I doubt said surgeries are the all-time cure. The body is just breaking down.

Until you deal with chronic pain you just cannot understand just what one will go through for a few hours of peace.

There are many of us who honest to god need pain medication just to function. We aren't all addicts just looking for the high and quite honestly I get tired of all the propaganda against pain medications, lumping all of us in the same boat.

It's like marijuana was centuries ago.
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  #22  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:42 PM
running running is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I think it is best to meet people in the reality of their lived experience just as they experience it because we might speak of the truth as I experience it, but that is not the truth as another experiences it. The difficulty in the issue is coming to terms with the truth as it is in the way you actually do experience it - not as anyone else experiences it. Sometimes the truth as it arises is too harsh for a person to face and it can be quite damaging to force such a truth on a person before they have the fortitude to see it through.



In the meditation, you will observe the truth 'as it is' for you, and cultivatre the conditions which enable people to sit quietly with their real-lived experience as it actually is - but that is not an addiction treatment plan.



It takes a lot to address the addiction issue on all dimensions of the individual's physical, psychological and spiritual well-being; and also their extended life including immediate social support, their social environment/neighbourhood, the society they are part of and its general attitudes, the policy on drugs and alcohol, and the ideals that underpin normalised culture.


I used to be into intoxicants in a destructive way, but I stopped, and you would think by stopping my life would get better, but when an addict gets strung out things start falling apart and everything crumbles into ruins. This happened when I went completely sober. Everything was lost and I ended up with nothing. I was unable to deal with real estate peopl, employers etc, so I ended up homeless in my car not even looking for accommodations, and who was there? Why would I care if a spiritual person was yelling bliss through the car window telling me what I need? Who even bothered to ask me what I needed?


Now I know what you really have to do is sit down and listen, make a safe trustworthy space in which people are comfortable telling the truth, and let them say what it is they need the most. It's probably something simple like a shower - maybe even wash their clothes. Then you will find you are not prepared to give them what they actually need, and start telling them what you think they need, because you think you're spiritual and therefor expert on their life-situation when you have no idea and wouldn't even listen if they told you.


I know I'm not prepared to have strangers over for a shower, for example, and I don't go out of my way to get involved in the complexity of addiction issues beyond throwing a fiver in a beggar bowl, so don't I pretend that I care. Of course I care in a general compassionate sense, but not in a way that I'm going to do anything about it. I don't make a noise pretending I'm prepared to do what it takes when firstly, I don't know how to do that, and secondly, I am not prepared to do it even if I did.

glad u made it gem
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  #23  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:43 PM
running running is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linen53
Taking one tiny pill to calm the screams of my pain is well worth it. I am careful not to become addicted but I do need my opiates to function. Many surgeries later I hope I don't need them anymore but quite honestly I doubt said surgeries are the all-time cure. The body is just breaking down.

Until you deal with chronic pain you just cannot understand just what one will go through for a few hours of peace.

There are many of us who honest to god need pain medication just to function. We aren't all addicts just looking for the high and quite honestly I get tired of all the propaganda against pain medications, lumping all of us in the same boat.

It's like marijuana was centuries ago.

no doubt. my thread wasn't intended to lump everyone together. i hope it didn't come out like that. thanks for sharing!
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  #24  
Old 11-03-2019, 12:06 AM
Ziusudra Ziusudra is offline
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Let's make this clear.

When addicts die, it is not due to taking it for medical reason as directed.
Most of the addicts get their drugs from their friends, family, and etc. The drugs were not directly prescribed to them.

The definition of addiction, according to NIDA (The National Institute on Drug Abuse): “…a chronic, relapsing brain disease that is characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, despite harmful consequences.”

Person does not just become an addict by just taking it for a valid medical reason.
Most people can stop once the medical reason is resolved.

However, the progressions to addiction happen to some people with genetic predisposition for addictive personality and/or un-diagnosed/untreated underlying psychological conditions. And it can ultimately lead them to the death associated with their addiction.

Here are the 5 stages of addiction from one of the addiction web site. https://www.inspiremalibu.com/blog/a...ioral-roadmap/
It is general as there are exceptions, like any other conditions.

"1. First Use
First Use encompasses experimentation with alcohol or drugs, but also includes a person taking medication that their physician prescribed them for a specific issue.

Whether the first use is out of a sense of adventure, peer pressure or a medical necessity, they learn how the substance makes them feel at this point.

2. Continued Use
Continued Use of the substance, in the case of a person with a prescription, might be out of a requirement or feeling the need to use the medication.

For an individual that experimented not too long ago and returned to the substance, it’s clearer that they like how the drug makes them feel.

Also, in the continued use stage, a person is likely to notice that they’re not bouncing back as quickly after getting “high.” This is because it’s taking the brain longer to chemically repair itself and return to normal balance.

3. Tolerance
Tolerance arrives after a period of continued use, the duration of which varies among individuals and whatever substances their using.

This is one of the first warning signs of addiction.

Tolerance means the brain and body have adjusted to the drug and it now takes a greater amount to feel the effects of it.

A person that’s developed a tolerance to a prescription painkiller their doctor prescribed might start to notice that the same dosage no longer takes care of their pain.

4. Dependence
Dependence is the stage where a substance abuser will become physically ill without alcohol or drugs, perhaps even developing serious withdrawal symptoms. There are several biological elements in play here.

Chemically, the brain has become accustomed to the substance and doesn’t function well without it.

This also presents physically, sending a person into withdrawal where they can experience flu-like symptoms with opiates, or sweats and shakiness with alcohol.

These symptoms often disappear when they’re able to get a drink or a fix of their drug.

With dependence to drugs or alcohol, individuals don’t feel “normal” if they’re not using. This stage is a sign that addiction is taking hold.

5. Addiction
With the last stage, addiction, individuals find it nearly impossible to stop misusing drugs or alcohol, even when they no longer enjoy it or their behavior has caused serious life problems.

They might last for periods of time where they don’t use drugs or alcohol, but are unable to stop themselves just when things seemed to be going well.

On other side of the coin, a person in the throws of addiction who’s lost everything might be in total denial, unwilling or unable to face the disease. "

So, you are not an addict if you are taking it for pain but are able to stop once the pain is resolved.- either by other treatment or by natural healing process.
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  #25  
Old 11-03-2019, 12:06 AM
Ziusudra Ziusudra is offline
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.............dup...
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  #26  
Old 11-03-2019, 12:37 AM
ImthatIm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by running
i have experince. real world expereince

I was ASSUMING this experience was in helping addicts recover.
And your methods had good results with real world experience.

But now I think I may have wrongly ASSUMED.

So I will ask.

Does your practice and devotion have real world experience because
you helped other addicts recover or The experience you mean, is in your life only?

There are 12 step programs all over the world and across the Americas
that may benefit from your practices and devotions.Stop on by or drive on by.
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  #27  
Old 11-03-2019, 01:18 AM
running running is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImthatIm
I was ASSUMING this experience was in helping addicts recover.
And your methods had good results with real world experience.

But now I think I may have wrongly ASSUMED.

So I will ask.

Does your practice and devotion have real world experience because
you helped other addicts recover or The experience you mean, is in your life only?

There are 12 step programs all over the world and across the Americas
that may benefit from your practices and devotions.Stop on by or drive on by.

i was speaking from my experience as i explained. nowhere did i offer myself as a counselor or anything of the matter.i think you forgot the first post.

what the thread is about. all the joy one could ever want can happen through practice. the possibility. i am that experince. as i explained. i am speaking from that. that possibility.

if people were aware of such. many would chose that. since people aren't honest or speaking up about such possibility. if they have progressed to such. more would know if more were speaking honestly like i am. simple. how many would decide the spiritual path for that. rather than artificially? nobody knows. hecause people even here on a spiritual forum rarely know of such possibility. that is the point of the thread.

i find disturbing such basic things aren't being spoken about enough for it to be common knowledge. its very corrupt when the most basic things aren't spoken much about. i applaud those that do. wish there was more honest folks. one can hope for more in the future.
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  #28  
Old 11-03-2019, 01:44 AM
Uma Uma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by running
perhaps a lack of understanding of the english language. bliss is the divine mother expressing herself through the nervous system. whether one calls it intoxicating or not. it is a fact joy. it is a fact from the nervous system. not an emotion. as it is without beginning and without end.

intoxicating synonyms: heady, exhilarating, thrilling, exciting, rousing, stirring, stimulating, invigorating, electrifying, inspiring, galvanizing

many of those words fit.

if your guru doesn't know this simple truth in addition to not being able to share it with others. i would keep looking. but i don't know your goals..

Disagree: "bliss is the divine mother expressing herself through the nervous system" - I know what you're talking about. This is prana. Prana risen up to the head space produces an intoxicating feeling. I can do this in meditation because my Kundalini is up there. This however is not true bliss or greatest bliss. And seekers can get addicted to these things too (they're called kryias). They don't get you anywhere unless your goal is to be blissed out all the time.

In yogic science there are various kinds of bliss. There are also various levels of bliss. There is another name for it "samadhi" which if you look it up you'll find there are various levels of samadhi too. None of these is this true bliss.

True bliss is called "ananda". This comes from true enlightenment. There is the phrase Sat Chit Ananda - the conscious experience of the Supreme "That"/Sat - which can't be named because it is beyond form. Baba Nityananda said Sat (pure and total awareness of Self) plus Chit (Supreme Consciousness) equals Ananda (Greatest Bliss). He meant that when the seeker attains complete enlightenment, Ananda is the result.

I've had some pretty dynamo bliss experiences from meditative states - some lasting moments some lasting days - but have not yet tasted true ananda. Patanjali Yoga Sutras also speaks about going past samadhi into this space. It is in all writings of the great sages.

As to goals - we all have our own standards right? Some will happily stay at lower levels being content with what they have attained. Others will strive to attain more. It doesn't matter. We come back again and again to go for the gold. Eventually we all end up there - very happy indeed.

As to gurus - garden variety gurus can transmit their energy into you and give you a "high" - but that's not what it's all about. That's like a kick start to your engine - which you need to drive and improve to get to the top of the mountain.
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  #29  
Old 11-03-2019, 02:24 AM
running running is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uma
Disagree: "bliss is the divine mother expressing herself through the nervous system" - I know what you're talking about. This is prana. Prana risen up to the head space produces an intoxicating feeling. I can do this in meditation because my Kundalini is up there. This however is not true bliss or greatest bliss. And seekers can get addicted to these things too (they're called kryias). They don't get you anywhere unless your goal is to be blissed out all the time.

In yogic science there are various kinds of bliss. There are also various levels of bliss. There is another name for it "samadhi" which if you look it up you'll find there are various levels of samadhi too. None of these is this true bliss.

True bliss is called "ananda". This comes from true enlightenment. There is the phrase Sat Chit Ananda - the conscious experience of the Supreme "That"/Sat - which can't be named because it is beyond form. Baba Nityananda said Sat (pure and total awareness of Self) plus Chit (Supreme Consciousness) equals Ananda (Greatest Bliss). He meant that when the seeker attains complete enlightenment, Ananda is the result.

I've had some pretty dynamo bliss experiences from meditative states - some lasting moments some lasting days - but have not yet tasted true ananda. Patanjali Yoga Sutras also speaks about going past samadhi into this space. It is in all writings of the great sages.

As to goals - we all have our own standards right? Some will happily stay at lower levels being content with what they have attained. Others will strive to attain more. It doesn't matter. We come back again and again to go for the gold. Eventually we all end up there - very happy indeed.

As to gurus - garden variety gurus can transmit their energy into you and give you a "high" - but that's not what it's all about. That's like a kick start to your engine - which you need to drive and improve to get to the top of the mountain.

are you past the coming and going? or are you sharing about experinces. either way is awesome. one leads to the other.

yes, thank you for speaking about the process. if it comes and goes that is the process. i agree it needs to become past the coming and going. where there is no absence. it is different in that because one is acclimated. it doesnt come and go. its not an experince. but a lived reality. not intense like the process of coming and going. cause. its not. coming and going. nothing someone can be addicted to. because again its not coming and going. lol. no offense. im not laughing at you. i always laugh at such a concern. when it is that that brings one past that. that being the coming and going to beyond the coming and going. to becoming acclimated into that as a living experince. it is joyful. it is silent. its just not experinced the same because it is not coming and going. and ones system, mind, and so on is acclimated to that. all of that is bliss. its from the process to beyond the process. anything after that. maybe.. i do know everything becomes cleared out from bliss. from silence. that is just what they do. i would presume that that could lead to something beyond again. we will see for ourselves one day.

those kick starts bring one to it. where a guru may help. hopefully going past the come and go. im glad to see you know this. and shared. thanks for sharing! once ovef or top of the mountain as you put it then perhaps less important. imo
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  #30  
Old 11-03-2019, 02:39 AM
ImthatIm
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by running
i was speaking from my experience as i explained. nowhere did i offer myself as a counselor or anything of the matter.i think you forgot the first post.

what the thread is about. all the joy one could ever want can happen through practice. the possibility. i am that experince. as i explained. i am speaking from that. that possibility.

if people were aware of such. many would chose that. since people aren't honest or speaking up about such possibility. if they have progressed to such. more would know if more were speaking honestly like i am. simple. how many would decide the spiritual path for that. rather than artificially? nobody knows. hecause people even here on a spiritual forum rarely know of such possibility. that is the point of the thread.

i find disturbing such basic things aren't being spoken about enough for it to be common knowledge. its very corrupt when the most basic things aren't spoken much about. i applaud those that do. wish there was more honest folks. one can hope for more in the future.

I'm straight now.Like I said I ASSUMED.

Right, speak the truth and when a opportunity arises don't hesitate to speak out to help others.
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