when did you feel spiritual benefit?

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by Olorin

I don't actually worship anything by the way.

Excellent, atb..

To the OP, please excuse if I derailed the thread a tad, my bag, peace

[knightofalbion]

Originally Posted by vectorG3

In my experience this is wrong. What's written on the topic doesn't really hold much weight if you become very poorly without meat. That would be cruelty to the animal that is your body. Synthesizing protein absolutely requires stomach acid and I have hypochloridia. So, meat or veg protein is gonna be poorly synthesized, if barely at all. However, with meat, you are borrowing life force from an animal that has utilised protein correctly.

Meat has an affect, as all food does, as soon as it chewed. With meat you immediately take on borrowed life force that is a lot more powerful than plants.

I would dearly love to be an organic vegetarian again but it's not currently possible. Hal Huggins, mercury free dental pioneer, found, from 1000's of patients who'd undergone removal of mercury for M.E. (severe digestive imbalance), no vegetarians improved.

1) Life force? Meat has no life force, it's dead. Dead food, that is only going to bring death and disease into the body.

2) Protein IS protein. 22 amino acids - herbivore or carnivore, the same.

Anyone short of hydrochloric acid is going to struggle to digest any protein.
I would have thought, in this respect, meat would be the last resort, as meat takes much longer to break down and digest.
A plant protein, or a 'pre-assimilated' protein i.e. yoghurt would be much better.

Kelp, as it contains natural chlorine, can help kick start hydrochloric acid production.

Betaine supplements (derived from beetroot) can be taken as a supplement for those not producing enough hydrochloric acid.

3) I don't have the link to hand, but a Japanese study on the same lines .i.e. removing mercury amalgam fillings, found - despite using all recognised barrier methods - considerable leakage of mercury.
The same study found this leakage was cleared/removed from the body by using cilantro (coriander), this where everything else had failed.

It's astonishing to me that anyone can think there is a difference in proteins derived from animals and proteins derived from plants. They are the same, the exact, the precise proteins, regardless of source. Seriously...doesn't anyone do their own research? It takes only seconds to do a search online.

Meat is dead. There is no "life-force" in it. It died violently, suffering from tortures beyond belief. Again, there is ample evidence online, including horrific videos. (Pigs being boiled alive is just one example.) Animals, whether their flesh is "organic" or not, do not die willingly and do not die without suffering.

Comparing a nonhuman animal used for food to animals in the wild is a ridiculous and meaningless comparison. It's one of the most invalid arguments for the eating of nonhuman flesh. Humans have a choice! We can choose to participate in cruelty or not. We do not need to eat flesh to survive. But there are other animals in the world who do need it (such as obligate carnivores).

An aside... Doesn't "M.E." stand for myalgic encephalomyelitis? It is not a "severe digestive imbalance". Mercury has not been shown to be a factor in M.E. at all. Huggins was right about the dangers of mercury but was wrong that it was/is the cause of all or most illnesses. In fact, he lost his license precisely because of this deceptive practice. His "research" about vegetarians was entirely made up, was never published or peer-reviewed and was, of course, never replicated. In fact, only a very few people with chronic illness improve after having amalgam fillings removed. I wish it were different, because I am very opposed to using mercury at all (including in vaccines). I am extremely allergic to mercury...truly allergic. It causes a horrendous rash that then bleeds. It takes weeks or months to heal. But despite my own issues with mercury, I know to do my own research. Fact-checking is so easy now! We have the world at our fingertips.

Knight... I also saw that information about coriander. I think the more current research shows that it helps (far more than the barrier methods), but isn't the cure-all that originally thought. But it sure does do more than using barriers, which still releases a lot of mercury vapor. (More's the pity.)

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

1) Life force? Meat has no life force, it's dead. Dead food, that is only going to bring death and disease into the body.

I don't think you can, or should, state that categorically but you're wellcome to. My experience tells me other.

2) Protein IS protein. 22 amino acids - herbivore or carnivore, the same.

There's more to food than the sum of it's parts imo and experience.

Anyone short of hydrochloric acid is going to struggle to digest any protein.
I would have thought, in this respect, meat would be the last resort, as meat takes much longer to break down and digest.

True, I struggle to digest meat too. In fact the only meat I can deal with is organic lamb liver, which I age slightly. Liver hangs very quickly in it's blood/juices and predigested meat is very more bio-available. I have to be carefull not to age it too much as it becomes too powerful for me. I can't even tolerate flower essences as my grounding is so poor. I've tried vegetarian whilst ill and became extremely weak and emaciated.

A plant protein, or a 'pre-assimilated' protein i.e. yoghurt would be much better.

Tried plant proteins and as above, I eat a pre assimilated protein. Aged liver. It was actually a vegan cooking "expert" at a retreat in glastonbury that recommended it. It was good advice. Carefull recomending that though cos many are acidifying. If it's being fermented it must be done anaerobically and with no light to not become acidic. But on the right track in some ways. You read this is good for that and that for that etc but really this is for folk who can assimilate and process it.

Kelp, as it contains natural chlorine, can help kick start hydrochloric acid production.

Also contains carageenan I believe which is bad news for crohns like probs, if I remember rightly? Thanks for attempting to offer alternatives. I vappreciate it. I used to eat seaweeds but just didn't click with me. I can't do cruciferous veg, tempeh and and the other are no no's. I've tried everything, I really have. I'm quite good at listening to my body and it is also screams if I'm not careful. If it says no or yes enough times to be sure, I listen to it. If I don't recovery is further away. As Starbuck pointed out...

Betaine supplements (derived from beetroot) can be taken as a supplement for those not producing enough hydrochloric acid.

There's a very good reason my stomach can't produce acid, because my tissues are acidic instead of alrkaline. When I took betaine hydrochloride it just made more acidic and caused twitching, tremors and cramping--that's acidosis. I need to alkalise. Once you have leaky gut everything you eat is very poorly processed and burdensome and feeding systemic yeast. I've beren around M.E. forums for many years and have only met a couple of young folk who recovered. It's a very complex multisystem illnesss that is very difficult to treat, apparently. Nearly did 2-3 times though. Whilst eating meat. I do know my shiz but juggling 20 tennis balls till you pass the finish line is not easy, unfortunately. I can't take any vitamins, minerals orr anything even slightly concentrated.. Out of the 12 foods I eat, I react minorly to half but needs must.

3) I don't have the link to hand, but a Japanese study on the same lines .i.e. removing mercury amalgam fillings, found - despite using all recognised barrier methods - considerable leakage of mercury.

This is probably right. I lost 3 stone and turned gray after having mine removed. I did develop retention toxicity because of. No chelation worked though I never tried coriander. Retention toxicity is severe mercury poisoning. I registered 10 ppm in my saliva a couple of months post removal. The same parts per million of colloidal silver can have a very powerfull anti-biotic affect on the body, that you may know of...just to illustrate how seemingly small amounts can wallop ya.

The same study found this leakage was cleared/removed from the body by using cilantro (coriander), this where everything else had failed.

I find this hard to believe but I certainly don't reject it and may investigate further. The only thing that removed the retention toxicity was £250 electro-acupuncture device I happened on at a car boot sale for £2.50. Invented by a man who treats M.E. It took a month and the release of tension around my midrift was substantial. It immediately removed a 3 year stitch in my liver...came back a few days bit kept working on it and it went. I would say that that's the best way to address retention toxicity from mercury...though haven't tried all. Ultimately I was glad I did considering my life ended after walking out of a dental surgery after having one mercury filling. It seemed necessary. Folk should be carefull about mercury removal...but at the same time they should be concerned that it's in your mouth, catch 22.

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by Everly

It's astonishing to me that anyone can think there is a difference in proteins derived from animals and proteins derived from plants. They are the same, the exact, the precise proteins, regardless of source. Seriously...doesn't anyone do their own research? It takes only seconds to do a search online.

Ok, I'm stupid.

Meat is dead. There is no "life-force" in it. It died violently, suffering from tortures beyond belief. Again, there is ample evidence online, including horrific videos. (Pigs being boiled alive is just one example.) Animals, whether their flesh is "organic" or not, do not die willingly and do not die without suffering.

Oh there is plenty of animal cruelty I agree. I try to do the least harm. Organic is the best though, much less suffering. Do you eat organic vegetarian stuff?

Comparing a nonhuman animal used for food to animals in the wild is a ridiculous and meaningless comparison. It's one of the most invalid arguments for the eating of nonhuman flesh. Humans have a choice! We can choose to participate in cruelty or not. We do not need to eat flesh to survive. But there are other animals in the world who do need it (such as obligate carnivores).

I don't think it's a bad comparison at all and that's assuming that some folk can't live heathily on meat at all. I disregard absolutes and black and white arguments as closed minded. Not that I'm open minded. I have done plenty of research and found plenty of "health pros" who disagree with you. Mercola for one.

An aside... Doesn't "M.E." stand for myalgic encephalomyelitis? It is not a "severe digestive imbalance".

I can no longer locate the studyy but there was one done and published which I found on WDDTY website that found that 90-95% of folk with M.E. had very low and no stomach acid. If you digested your food perfectly one would assume you'd have energy from it.

Mercury has not been shown to be a factor in M.E. at all.

Mercury has not been proven to be a factor in any illness has it? I doubt it ever will to because imagine the payout? Yet it is being phsed out slowly. If you have M.E. most dentists will now allow you to have white fillings on the NHS. It used to mercury for everyone. I wonder why?

Huggins was right about the dangers of mercury but was wrong that it was/is the cause of all or most illnesses.

I have not read that he claimed it as such? What I believe I know is that it cannot be in your body in those amounts and not affect you/anyone.

In fact, he lost his license precisely because of this deceptive practice. His "research" about vegetarians was entirely made up, was never published or peer-reviewed and was, of course, never replicated.

Many mercury free dentists have come under what many would say is unfair scrutiny including loosing their license. Not so much now as it has gaind more prominence since the net started. I wasn't aware he had done any research on vegetarians-wqhere did you get this from? His advice was based on years of watching vegetarians never improve.

In fact, only a very few people with chronic illness improve after having amalgam fillings removed.

This is true. The reason as I see it is that the mercury taxes your immune system which leaves you open to bacterial, viral and fungal invasion. I have systemic yeast. This is now a self fulfilling situation regardless of mercury. That was the hair, or brick, that broke the camels back.

I wish it were different, because I am very opposed to using mercury at all (including in vaccines). I am extremely allergic to mercury...truly allergic. It causes a horrendous rash that then bleeds. It takes weeks or months to heal. But despite my own issues with mercury, I know to do my own research. Fact-checking is so easy now! We have the world at our fingertips.

I do did my own research and alot of it.

Knight... I also saw that information about coriander. I think the more current research shows that it helps (far more than the barrier methods), but isn't the cure-all that originally thought. But it sure does do more than using barriers, which still releases a lot of mercury vapor. (More's the pity.)

Barrier methods might as well be used in conjunction though no? I had rubber dams at the Bromford dental clinic who were one of the only ones doing it back in 98. They couldn't get a dam on one tooth and I even swallowed the filling...which was a damn poor show and caused me probably plenty of probs. I don't regret it though. Near recovered a few times after that but didn't let the vase set and it cracked. Even with retention toxicity my head felt alot better. My issues with mercury are way behind me and, if I don't mind saying, Iwas very good at getting myself out of that hole. There was no net then and even mentioning mercury got you scoffed at but I walked in the dental surgery in 98 and haven't walked out. It was immediate and black and white.

Originally Posted by vectorG3

Oh there is plenty of animal cruelty I agree. I try to do the least harm. Organic is the best though, much less suffering.

Suffering is suffering. I don't understand the justification of "less suffering". If it's your choice, that's fine. But I don't understand such odd reasoning. And I stand by my comment that meat is dead and has no life-force.

(And no, I eat very little organic food. I live on a small island where such things are beyond my budget.)

Originally Posted by vectorG3

I don't think it's a bad comparison at all and that's assuming that some folk can't live heathily on meat at all. I disregard absolutes and black and white arguments as closed minded. Not that I'm open minded. I have done plenty of research and found plenty of "health pros" who disagree with you. Mercola for one.

Wow. You missed the point entirely. I said the comparison was invalid. And it is. You can't compare animals in the wild to captive animals used for food. Wild animals hunting is not the same as humans torturing other living beings for no reason other than they like the taste of their flesh. It's not the same thing at all.

As for Joseph Mercola... He's gone off the rails. He gets some things right and plenty of things wrong. This happens all too easily and commonly when people have an axe to grind.

Originally Posted by vectorG3

I can no longer locate the studyy but there was one done and published which I found on WDDTY website that found that 90-95% of folk with M.E. had very low and no stomach acid. If you digested your food perfectly one would assume you'd have energy from it.

I'd like to see the original study and the cited replications. Without that, I have to assume it's bunk. But for argument's sake, let's assume it's true. Correlation is not the same as causality. Moreover, there are countless reasons for not having energy, none of which relate to food. It's that same correlation-causality issue.

Originally Posted by vectorG3

I have not read that he claimed it as such? What I believe I know is that it cannot be in your body in those amounts and not affect you/anyone.

Yes, he did, and that's why he lost his license. He made wild, preposterous claims that were false. He harmed a lot of people. Again, even a modest search will detail how and why he lost his license.

I don't know how much mercury humans can absorb without harm. I suspect that it's different for different people. I do believe it's harmful, but if it were harmful in the same ways and in the same degree for everyone, we'd all be mad or dead. So, clearly, it's not the same for everyone.

Originally Posted by vectorG3

Many mercury free dentists have come under what many would say is unfair scrutiny including loosing their license. Not so much now as it has gaind more prominence since the net started. I wasn't aware he had done any research on vegetarians-wqhere did you get this from? His advice was based on years of watching vegetarians never improve.

Mercury-free dentistry was around long before the 'net. And that is not why he lost his license. Please read what I wrote in my earlier post and above. Or, better yet, look it up.

I used the word "research" loosely. His anecdotal reporting was, and remains, false. Again, look deeper and you'll see that he made it up.

Originally Posted by vectorG3

Barrier methods might as well be used in conjunction though no? I had rubber dams at the Bromford dental clinic who were one of the only ones doing it back in 98. They couldn't get a dam on one tooth and I even swallowed the filling...which was a damn poor show and caused me probably plenty of probs. I don't regret it though. Near recovered a few times after that but didn't let the vase set and it cracked. Even with retention toxicity my head felt alot better. My issues with mercury are way behind me and, if I don't mind saying, Iwas very good at getting myself out of that hole. There was no net then and even mentioning mercury got you scoffed at but I walked in the dental surgery in 98 and haven't walked out. It was immediate and black and white.

I've only quoted the above paragraph because your "information" about the 'net is wrong, as is your idea that mercury-free dentistry was rare in '98.

Where do you get your information? I'm not trying to be mean, but it seems to me that you really need to do some fact-checking, because...

It's just not true that there was no 'net in '98. The internet became public with the web in '91. Granted, not many people were online back then, and it was another year or two before it really caught fire. I've had computers since 1982 and have been online since 1987. Back then, everyone belonged to computer-specific networks (Q-Link, GEnie, CompuServe, Prodigy, etc.), but in order to use the internet (ARPAnet/Usenet), you had to have a government or university account. By 1998 even my tech-deprived friends had computers and were actively online.

I don't know where you live, but there were a good number of mercury-free dentists back in the 80s here in Florida (and since Florida is hardly at the front of medical/scientific progress, I assume they were probably even more prominent elsewhere). By the 90s there were more everywhere. And now they're common all over (thank goodness).

(Lastly, ME is, in simplest terms, and by definition, a brain disease. Thus, the "encephalo-" part.)

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by Everly

Suffering is suffering. I don't understand the justification of "less suffering". If it's your choice, that's fine. But I don't understand such odd reasoning. And I stand by my comment that meat is dead and has no life-force.

(And no, I eat very little organic food. I live on a small island where such things are beyond my budget.)

Hi Everly, I hope this day finds you well,
Yes but what of the untold suffering of wild animals through pesticides? I always find it strangel; vegetarians who take part in the mass abuse of wildlife. I was 100% organic for 5 years on £60...that's bills paid too and is the absolute minimum anyone is given by the government. So no-one can deal the money card to me on organic...it's just disinclination as I see it. It's very possible that your footprint causes more suffering than mine but at very least you're buying habits DO cause suffering to animals on a large scale...you support it by buying conventionally farmed foods. Find a way to buy organic. I found that when I rose up to meet organic and hence less abuse, the world conspired to see that I got it. It will do for you too I believe, if you're committed because it's right and not because I say.

Wow. You missed the point entirely. I said the comparison was invalid. And it is. You can't compare animals in the wild to captive animals used for food. Wild animals hunting is not the same as humans torturing other living beings for no reason other than they like the taste of their flesh. It's not the same thing at all.

Not the same sure though I wouldn't call organic meat torture. I would call mass pesticide use tortue and you're a willing party to it.

As for Joseph Mercola... He's gone off the rails. He gets some things right and plenty of things wrong. This happens all too easily and commonly when people have an axe to grind.

Well that's a matter of opinion isn't it? I do disagree with a fair bit of what he says for sure. What's he got wrong out of interest? Can we not didscuss this in a friendly non combative manner? If I'm terse in anyway then excuse, it's not my intention. Mercola didn't say vegetarianism was wrong. He said don't let me or anyone else tell you whether it's right for your body. Quite a balanced view I thought.

I'd like to see the original study and the cited replications. Without that, I have to assume it's bunk. But for argument's sake, let's assume it's true. Correlation is not the same as causality. Moreover, there are countless reasons for not having energy, none of which relate to food. It's that same correlation-causality issue.

This from one website * Have your gut checked out. Many ME patients suffer from low stomach acid, leaky gut or parasites (tests are available at Biolab Medical Unit: 020 7636 5959). http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.aspx?Id=3298 Not the study they did but shows I am not the only person who thinks this. Well I know it really. I eat food and it doesn't do anything barely..Takes 3 hours of stillness and lying down to fully digest a meal so as not to have much worse symptons. Words and info pale in actuality. What are the other causes of fatigue do you know of? There are others for sure. Some folk have M.E. and no fillings. I know a few other causes...vaccines for one. Partaking in M.E. forums clearly indicates digestive upset for practically everyone. Would be aggravated by such as mercury fillings or vaccines for sure.

Yes, he did, and that's why he lost his license. He made wild, preposterous claims that were false. He harmed a lot of people. Again, even a modest search will detail how and why he lost his license.

What claims out of interest? You ask me to back up mine and your claims. I don't mind if you don't accept any points I feel are correct. Mercury removal is a very tricky procedure as you know. I got worse and I swallowed a filling which is poor practise. I was warned before hand of the risks-not that oner though. Perhaps he didn't warn folk, I don't know but as a matter of course some would of gotten ill unfortunately and the more he did the more would get ill. That's still very possible today.

I don't know how much mercury humans can absorb without harm. I suspect that it's different for different people. I do believe it's harmful, but if it were harmful in the same ways and in the same degree for everyone, we'd all be mad or dead. So, clearly, it's not the same for everyone.

I agree...3% are severly affected apparently...the rest imo are all affected somewhat and personally, i look around and see plenty of madness. "All worldlings are mad" -Buddha (attributed to)

Mercury-free dentistry was around long before the 'net. And that is not why he lost his license. Please read what I wrote in my earlier post and above. Or, better yet, look it up.

I didn't imply it wasn't around before the net. This was pre internet for me.

I used the word "research" loosely. His anecdotal reporting was, and remains, false. Again, look deeper and you'll see that he made it up.

I don't undrerstand how you know it's false? So you have looked deeper and know? A persons experience that no vegetarians improved is just that. Prove it's false. I don't think you could prove it true though it was based on bloodwork as well which he did ALOT of but still, it's his word. Take it or leave it. You want me to locate a study but won't, which I'd happily cite, run around backing up your claims? You do that or ask me to take on faith by all means.

I've only quoted the above paragraph because your "information" about the 'net is wrong, as is your idea that mercury-free dentistry was rare in '98.

Ah pre internet for me. I never had till 07'ish. I believe it gained momentum around 96' in the UK but I doubt it was the information power house it is now. I could be wrong.

Where do you get your information? I'm not trying to be mean, but it seems to me that you really need to do some fact-checking, because...

I'd rather be friendly

It's just not true that there was no 'net in '98. The internet became public with the web in '91. Granted, not many people were online back then, and it was another year or two before it really caught fire. I've had computers since 1982 and have been online since 1987. Back then, everyone belonged to computer-specific networks (Q-Link, GEnie, CompuServe, Prodigy, etc.), but in order to use the internet (ARPAnet/Usenet), you had to have a government or university account. By 1998 even my tech-deprived friends had computers and were actively online.

I don't know where you live, but there were a good number of mercury-free dentists back in the 80s here in Florida (and since Florida is hardly at the front of medical/scientific progress, I assume they were probably even more prominent elsewhere). By the 90s there were more everywhere. And now they're common all over (thank goodness).

I live in the UK. I'd guess you are right about Florida and loadsa mercury free dentists. I find America to be a fair bit ahed of most countries when it comes to such things. I was advised by Hal's office to seek out Bromford dental clinic in London. There could have been dozens but I didn't need to look of course. Would of been a tricky search in 98 I think. I doubt many dentists were online back then even. Even now there are no more than a couple of dozen I can find. Many probably do it quietly and don't parade as mercury free though.

(Lastly, ME is, in simplest terms, and by definition, a brain disease. Thus, the "encephalo-" part.)

M.E. is a complete mystery to modern medicine so any label is perhaps not that noteworthy or entirely encompassing. The world health organisation do have it as a neurological illness and this is correct in part. The other part of it's name relates to muscle pain. I am big into complimentary therapy and generally it's thought that no sympton exists in isolation. So cerebral odema has causes that lie outside of the brain too, in the body.

Have a good un

[Emmalevine]

Just to tentatively chip in if I may...my experience of m.e (I have suffered from it badly for some years) is that it is at least partly an autoimmune illness and certainly in my case is linked to severe inflammation in the whole body. Beans, lentils etc are said to promote inflammation in some cases which is why many m.e peeps are following a recommended stone age type diet. I have suspected leaky gut and multiple food intolerances. Basically everything I eat makes me sneeze, headachy and I am prone to terrible attacks of gastritis as well a the horrible fluey muscle fatigue and pain I get a lot.

I'm not claiming anything I'm following this with interest as its very difficult to be torn between values/beliefs and wanting to get well.

Vector, I'm done. Argue with yourself.

But one thing.... I am 100% recovered from a very long bout with M.E. I was one of the very early ones: I got sick in 1980. It took a long time and it was a very interesting journey, but by 2007 I was well. Point is, I'm not talking through my hat or blowing smoke up anyone's backside.

[Arcturus]

Everly, I wasn't arguing with you mam. I wasn't personal and didn't attack you in any way. Please point out if I did, I wellcome feedback. I would have expected some compassion from one who now claims to know the score. Look anywhere, poor bowel activity and gut problems are across the board with it as I see but was not the case for you. Google search predict knows it. By far the main current focus of study and research into M.E./cfs is the gut microbiome.
--
Gut Reactions: The Root of CFS/FM May Be a Compromised GI Tract fhttp://www.needs.com/product/NDNL-0803-01/a_Chronic_Fatigue_Fibromyalgia I could link dozens. In fact it'd be harder to find a link on M.E. that does not contain this aspect. I wish you well