We Are Perfect (as we are)?....

[Saggi]

Originally Posted by Xan

I keep returning to the thought that whether or not we are perfect depends on what we mean by 'we'.

If it's the surface body-mind with all its quirks, vulnerabilities and inconsistencies, how could that be twisted into the notion of perfect - without flaw.

If it's the inner being with its constant silent whole presence in love and joy... well then...........

Rather than trying to justify the outer self as perfect with some tricks of the mind, we may turn our attention inward and discover true perfection.


Xan

How can it not be?

Take the regarded as perfect flower in your avatar,,

Is it the smell alone that gives it is's beauty?

Is it the perfect formation of the petals?

Are the thorns that form along the stem, to protect the inner beauty, a unique part of it perfectness?

It's merely a safety thing to remove the thorns,,, If handled with some thought and attention, there's no need to fear them,,,

Of all the adaptations made within the growing world to re-create something from it's original form, I've never heard of someone trying to grow a thornless rose,,,

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by she who plays

It's easy to be mean on the internet isn't it?

i note you said someone else was being aggressive too...maybe an angle of yours...i'd say the same in real life because thats what i think. i agree that if you relate its better so feel free...i think nearly everyone deludes themself in one way or another including you and me...if saying that makes me nasty to you then i think you have something to resolve too...

Being a perfect human being is accepting the pain when it comes, not denying it. Not shutting off from your personal emotional reactions. This is perfect in a definition of the word (And there are infinite definitions) because the person is accepting the whole of his being whether good or bad. He is accepting the soul's infinite expression and the soul is whole. Denial of something is ego-centered, and this is a valid definition of imperfection in spiritual terms. God is not egotistical . God is not above anything. God just is. We are god.

insight, as i see it, does not accept or reject...it just sees. the acceptance you speak comes over as an ego centred activity that is constructed to live with the pain...a resistance of acceptance. god is this god is that god is obviously a self projected concept of what you state is noble and holy...high sounding gratifying emptiness is what it sounds like to me...i suppose that makes me cruel?

[Arcturus]

Originally Posted by arive nan

I am the one who felt my feelings. I know I felt what I felt what I felt because I felt it. For me, no other validation is needed besides the experience of feeling it. Because I'm the one who felt it. Feelings that are felt are not delusion. Feelings are just feelings. They are real feelings if they are felt. Nothing else is needed for them to be a feeling that was really felt by the person who felt it.

ok an, what exactly did you feel as i think we're discussing something i don't fully comprehend or even know precisely what you mean. i guess you mean you experienced the "sense" of perfection in everything? i can see that even sorrow can bring insight but it rarely does as i see it. folk feel they have learnt but carry on the same and so "learn" over asnd over and over again because they never learnt in the first place...endless misery. for me humans construct elaborate conceptual notions out of a need to know. aren't we in danger by "accepting" pain that we continually prolong it...most folk feel they are for the greater good but look around, its obviously not so...maybe, myself included, we are not aware at all of the travesty we live and spread?

You are contradicting yourself. According to you, ignorance and violence and bad stuff is reality and it is a bad thing to "shun" it. According to you people shouldn't have a sense of perfection because things are not perfect. But now you are saying that simply seeing from a certain perspective should actually eliminate the bad things and make things perfect? We should not see from a POV that involves a sense of everything being perfect, according to you, because things are not perfect, but also according to you feeling this sense during a change of perspective should make things actually perfect?

is insight a perspective?..coming at it from a certain angle or within a certain conceptual framework, such as "erverything is perfect". i see that insight banisdhes ignorance thats all...what is left i won't define in anyway like perfect etc as that would be the projecting into it of a concept.

It does not follow that this experience of feeling that sense of perfection from the universe's perspective actually magically changes the world to eliminate anything that the individual human perspective would find flawed. It just doesn't work that way. When back in the individual human POV being bullied still hurts, I still can't control other people's hurtful behavior that is their choice to continue, physical realities do not change, etc. But I found that after the experience I had more will to go on with my life and struggle with the difficult parts while enjoying the enjoyable parts.

maybe it changes nothing fundamentally and only alters the outward reaction because its a conceptual notion devoid of insight? ok i can understand that life is hard and one needs ways to go on and deal with things, no doubt i have controlling, comforting concepts too. does love know struggle?

Why not end all my problems? Am I supposed to have become omnipotent or immortal? I change what I can and solve what I can, but realistically I cannot solve everything. Or are you suggesting something else by "end your problems"? I won't do that because I feel that it would go against my own morals. Or do you mean the kind of enlightenment that involves letting go of all attachments and aversions so that problems do not feel like problems and one no longer feels suffering? Again, that contradicts your earlier statements about the reality of bad stuff. That would be truly disconnecting to stop seeing bad stuff, which you earlier expressed that you are against. If I had the kind of freedom that it sounds like you are suggesting should be an automatic result of the experience, then I really would fit that stereotype of what is condescendingly referred to as "fluffy", which according to you people should not do.

its a fair question..we are our problems, if we understand ourselves then the binding nature of our problems ends...why shouldn't you be omnipotent? surely in understanding one anger you understand the nature of anger completely and its over, done...or do we never actually fundamentally learn/have insight into anything and so continue on lost and blind...we! not you. i have not said that enlightenment involves disconnecting...one might still have problems arise but since there is insight then maybe there is no psychological scar as fear. i am saying that either your experience was insightfull into the human problem and so ended the darkness or it didn't and was just a peripheral coping mechanism that allows the pain to continue at a less obvious level...but it still continues.

I'm still a normal human being doing what I can do, changing what I can change while accepting what I can't. I do what I can to change what I can change. I had a spiritual experience and felt what I felt. That experience changed my life in positive ways. I could have rejected it and rejected the learning and growing.... but what would be the point of that? I had the experience, so why not benefit from it in the way that it can be benefited from? I do the same with other beneficial experiences, such as my education, work experience, friendships, relationships, family connections, etc. I "resort" to all of these just like everyone "resorts" to things they have felt and experienced when solving problems and just living life in general. Try getting by in life without "resorting" to anything you have experienced, felt, or learned. You would get nowhere, solve nothing, change nothing. Solving anything requires using what you have learned, experienced, and felt.

just like everyone else thinks they're doing what thjey can to change things. no doubt hitler thought similar, yet he we are. don't you think you should doubt your experience? you see there you gop again "the learning the growing"---do you see that this could go on forever? would insight resort? we address our life through our particular window of experience, as you say, and so we come at it from the "yesterdays"...it is the image we have of others that we relate to, and not them at all, and vice versa. perhaps viewing life through experience is why the worlds in a mess? of course if someone or something could be physically dangerous to us then that is a worthwhile practical memory...but should we rememberr psycvholigicallky...perhaps if we didn't store the joys, pains angers (i'm addressing myself also) etc then we might come to each moment afresh without the burden of experience and the yesrdays..you see pretty cool, just my thoughts, i don't communicate as well as i like to in text. i'm not here to berate you or attack you to win a debate....it comes from a good place, albeit crumpled lol, peace~

Originally Posted by she who plays

An imperfection can be perfect if one learns from that imperfect action or attitude, and does not repeat it in future. It is clean, thanks to the awareness. This way the journey can be without regret because one is learning from the experiences they are having.

Perfect lessons? Those calling themselves perfect don't seem to be on the learning path...this is why I started this thread!

[Saggi]

There is a saying that i love:

We learn something new everyday,,, (not sure who it originates from)

Yet, the context I tend to take it in, is something may well be shown to me in the way of a surprise!

Something that make me have an ahhhhhhhhhhh moment, not just from a studying point of view,,,

That's easy to do,,, learning in this way is on going and available,,,

For something to be taken as a surprise, there has to be nothing to be waiting for in a sense,,,

Mosey through life, allowing each day to unfold as it does,,,

Not always possible,,, plans do have to be made,,, schedules do have to be adhered to,,, although, basics can be put in place, then still a 'see what happens' attitude can be adopted or adapted to,,,

If a mind is on the road of 'life is about learning lessons', then it makes no difference whether a T-junction or a crossroads is met, each road from there will go to the dead end of constantly learning lessons and probably hitting a brick wall cos it's felt they haven't been learnt,,,, cos they're still on repeat,,,

Those who want to learn lessons,, go ahead,,, are you im/perfect?

Those who would like to work within, do so,,, are you im/perfect?

Those who feel the need to change the world,,, be my guest,,, are you im/perfect?

Those who would just change their own world,,, the floor is yours,,, are you im/perfect?

Those who sit back and float through life, happy,,, the world is your oyster (watch the world doesn't change tho ),,, are you im/perfect?

Who really cares whether some consider they're perfect, imperfect, better at something, able to change the world, more spiritual, further ahead, a guru, a yogi, or even God,,,

If the world is gonna change, it may well start here on SF,,, It's going well, isn't it!?!

And this is behind a computer,,, What would happen if half of you met in the real world, due to all the sniping and aggravation?

Anyway,,, stepping off my soap box now,,,

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

Saggi - I understand that you learn from yourself. I don't know whether this also applies to others who regard themselves as perfect. I assume so and, as far as this goes (without learning from books/others) I guess it is fine if it suffices for you. For me it would be too restrictive and suffer from the lack of benefit from external feedback.

It would be easy to pick your post apart....suffice it to highlight just one point:

"Those who need to change the world...are you imperfect" A more appropriate/directly accurate question would be - those who need to change the world...is the world imperfect?
Guess what the answer to that is! (If I need to fix a broken cup, I wouldn't ask am I broken!)

I agree that there tends to be a lot of sniping and aggravation but, hopefully also some useful headway in understanding - that's what a debate/thread serves to do when it works well. I think this thread has shed light/clarification on a lot of issues, misunderstandings....speaking for myself personally.

[Saggi]

Originally Posted by amy green

Saggi - I understand that you learn from yourself. I don't know whether this also applies to others who regard themselves as perfect. I assume so and, as far as this goes (without learning from books/others) I guess it is fine if it suffices for you. For me it would be too restrictive and suffer from the lack of benefit from external feedback.

It would be easy to pick your post apart....suffice it to highlight just one point:

"Those who need to change the world...are you imperfect" A more appropriate/directly accurate question would be - those who need to change the world...is the world imperfect?
Guess what the answer to that is!

I agree that there tends to be a lot of sniping and aggravation but, hopefully also some useful headway in understanding - that's what a debate/thread serves to do when it works well. I think this thread has shed light/clarification on a lot of issues, misunderstandings....speaking for myself personally.

There would be 7 billion answers to the question, from 7 billion different people,,,

Some would agree, some would disagre,,,

It doesn't in any way stop us living within it and loving it in some/most cases,,,

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx

Surely asking "is the world imperfect?" requires just a yes or no answer? Admittedly, there are probably 7 billion ways to qualify each of these stances though! My answer is a big fat YES - the world is in dire need of changing and I don't feel I need to qualify the reason since the worldly suffering is sufficiently blatantly obvious.

I think that becoming perfect is a maturation process, an ongoing development spiritually.

I think it's good that there can be a forum for people to discuss issues like this, but I do also agree with a recent poster who said something about imagining what we could all do if we did something together.

I find that living in community with others is helpful in showing me the areas where I need to grow/mature. It highlights my weaknesses, and the areas of my life that I don't want to be accountable for. I think similar benefits can be gained from SF.

If we could all work together in unity, then we would really become perfect in One. But I think it's tempting to be 'lone-rangers', so to speak, because we can convince ourselves that we are more perfect than we really are.

[Saggi]

Originally Posted by amy green

Surely asking "is the world imperfect?" requires just a yes or no answer? Admittedly, there are probably 7 billion ways to qualify each of these stances though! My answer is a big fat YES - the world is in dire need of changing and I don't feel I need to qualify the reason since the worldly suffering is sufficiently blatantly obvious.

You said it would be a more appropriate question, then asked me(?) to guess the answer,,,

My guess was, there would be 7 billion answers,,,

If you're interested in my answer,,,, NO,,, but hey,, my perfect 20/20 vision must be clouded or rose tinted,,,

Love and hugs

Jo

XxXx