Find the cause of suffering

Originally Posted by davidsun

I have 'called' out what I 'see' as unfair, (attempted) bullying, etc. by presenting what I see as 'grievously' unfair, bullying parallels.

And I am thankfull for it, everyone who sees something unfair should speak up.
That said however.

Originally Posted by davidsun

I merely meant to 'show' certain spiritual-thrust similarities. I did not mean to imply that the verbal behaviors/insinuations I 'objecting' to were as 'grievous' - I don't think they are.

There's ways of speaking up and downright bollocks.
The biggest grievance if you will was the 'gang bang' remark which when it was pointed out was met by the following quote.

Originally Posted by davidsun

I have, sky. The only 'retractal' I offer in the foregoing regard is that I shouls have said attempted gang bang!

Which for me nullifies your excuses above.
As for making a simile between Jesus/Gem and the children of the light on the one hand being wrongfully attacked by us/the children of the dark.
That's not a similarity, but an attempt to split open and broaden a gap that wasn't there at first.

As for my own behavior on this forum, I am well aware that my words aren't necessarily kind. I do take care not to spread lies, or misconceptions with them however. They are either stated as My assumptions, My observations and My conclusions.

@Gem, this still isn't about talking about Buddhism or not, It's about calling what you do Buddhist, where it has clearly been explained where what you say deviates from what are considered Buddhist teachings in several if not all major schools of Buddhist training. Now you can practice right speech or rather right typing all you want in a forum as this. It doesn't change that fact. Why you cling to the term Buddhism to explain what you do is beyond me and all the answers I can think of are less that Honest well intended reasons

With Love
Eelco

[sky]

So..... have we all found the cause of suffering ?

At the moment, it's thinking too much about this conversation. The twisting of words and the fact that deals made with the tax-office are aperrantly not valid so I have to fill out forms, do the math and hope they let me pay over a period of months as agreed upon instead of the whole thing at once.

In other words, just thouhts, because as I type this the sun is shining, birds are chirping and I breathe...

With Love
Eelco

[sky]

Originally Posted by Eelco

At the moment, it's thinking too much about this conversation. The twisting of words and the fact that deals made with the tax-office are aperrantly not valid so I have to fill out forms, do the math and hope they let me pay over a period of months as agreed upon instead of the whole thing at once.

In other words, just thouhts, because as I type this the sun is shining, birds are chirping and I breathe...

With Love
Eelco

Good luck with the Tax Man they certainly keep a ' closed fists '

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Point noted. You interpret honest disagreement and logical rebuttal as conflict-prone, IMO.

You can disagree honestly, but in a civil manner taking care not to indulge in drama to put your point across, thereby disturbing the harmony. There's no need to be a blunt knife to make a point.

The whole focus of buddhism is to get rid of personal drama, dramatics, false and artificial pleasure stemming from stirring agitation, from one's life. What's left then is the peace and bliss of the natural state of emptiness.

Originally Posted by davidsun

I welcome your disagreements and rebuttals as I think/feel/believe that the open sharing of differing perspectives provides everyone (you and me included) with additional possibilities to consider.

That is intelligently and civilly put.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by ajay00

You can disagree honestly, but in a civil manner taking care not to indulge in drama to put your point across, thereby disturbing the harmony. There's no need to be a blunt knife to make a point.

The whole focus of buddhism is to get rid of personal drama, dramatics, false and artificial pleasure stemming from stirring agitation, from one's life. What's left then is the peace and bliss of the natural state of emptiness.

That is intelligently and civilly put.

Well said. A nice reminder.

Originally Posted by Gem

Well said. A nice reminder.

Never would have guessed you needed a reminder..

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I notice Sky's post was in reference to your post to me, so I was just wondering if the above refers to me or if its just a generalisation.

Do you feel like it speaks to you at all?

Originally Posted by Gem

The basis of Gotama's teachings is to acknowledge ones own suffering, find the cause, and thus end suffering.

Most of us suffer and find cause in external things that hurt us. This means suffering is linked to sensation. The question is, does sensation cause suffering, or is it the way we relate to sensation that is cause?

In the meditation, mindfulness, we are aware of ourselves, body, mind, emotion, just as they are as they happen to arise. The obstacle to this is 'distraction'. We can drift off into autopilot and become unconscious of what is actually happening, and instead, live in an imaginary world created in reaction to the actual real lived experience.

In sitting practice we soon see we are aware of our sensation and thought, and then we drift away into imaginary pasts, futures and fantasies. It's not bad or incorrect to do this. The meditation practice just enables a conscious recognition of it. Now you know, 'so this is what I do'.

From that preliminary, the the same process of being aware, noticing and discovering continues, revealing the truth about ourselves. Through this process of 'sati' we soon come to learn about how we relate to sensation - including physical, emotional and psychological - and come to realise how we cause our own suffering by relating to sensation in a somewhat delusional way.

Once this cause is identified, each new arising of suffering is recognised as 'something I do', rather than 'something that happens to me'... and we are thereby led to understand the way to bring suffering to an end.

The basis of Gotama's teachings aside, mainly because we could argue about what the basis is I'd like to point out that what is described as meditation or sitting practice is but a tiny part meditation or sitting practice.


If I am reading this correctly I think this practice pertains so called Vipassana meditation in some derivative. Although very helpful, insightful and valuable for it's practitioners.. I am one of them. It is in my experience not the pinnacle of Buddhist practice where it comes to finding the "root" cause of suffering.


Vipassana as we know it is maybe only 100 years old. It is far more likely that so called samadhi(calm abiding) meditations were used. In those the practitioner builds concentration. The concentration is then used to pierce the veils of illusion that keep one from realizing the cause of suffering.


Also high concentration states as practiced in a Buddhist context give rise to many pleasurable and blissful states which in turn show the practitioner that peace is a state of mind/concentration and attainable everywhere given the correct conditions.



Other than concluding that I am causing the suffering or that this is something I do. We see through the experience as being it anicca, dhukka and annata. The experience stays pretty much the same, we just learn to deal with it more skillfully.(or not)



For a translation of these words I would suggest one reads up on their different translations and chooses what feels right for them. I'd like to point out that literal translations do exists. dhukka for instance is the connection between an axl and wheel, where if it doesn't fit perfectly it makes for a bumpy ride.


The word sati in the above post is probably not what you tried to convey as sati is the ritual burning of widows on their late husbands funeral pire.
Sati in a buddhist context may be translated as remebering. Keeping something in mind..I.e concentrating on an object and keep remembering to bring back ones awareness to the meditation object.



With Love
Eelco

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Eelco

Never would have guessed you needed a reminder..

It strikes me that you are 'blind' to your own 'shadow', ee-man. And so continue to 'see' 'offensiveness' in your attitude-n-verbal behavior as being 'good' (presumably while continuing so see 'offensiveness' from others as 'bad'.

That being said, I have noticed considerable improvement(s) on this score as 'shown' by changes in the current quality of the conversation here.

Not that everyone will appreciate and so 'love' and en'joy' it, but here a pertinent 'parable' (excerpted from https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-mind-the-mule ), pertinent IMO, that is:

A farmer was enormously proud of his mule and constantly bragged to his neighbors how obedient it was. "All you have do is ask politely, and it will do whatever you want."

Having heard this before, one of his neighbors was having nothing of it this time. "All mules are stubborn," he said, " and I don't believe yours is any different."

"But my mule is different," said the farmer. "It's well-behaved, and all you have to do is ask nicely and it will do whatever you want."

"I still don't believe you," the neighbor retorted. "Show me."

So the farmer took him out to the barn, and there in a stall at the back was the mule. Just as they walked up to it, the farmer leaned down, picked up a two-by-four, and smacked the mule over the head.

Stunned, his neighbor asked, "What are you doing? I thought you said your mule was obedient and would do whatever you asked?"

"Ah, yes," the farmer answered, "but you've got to get its attention first."

[Comment included with the 'story': The two-by-four gets the mule's attention, and ours as well, because it's so unexpected. The brain just continues its humdrum, automatic processing unless something unexpected happens. When it does, the substantia nigra/ventral tegemental area is activated, causing the release of dopamine and motivating us to explore the "new."]