Levels/Layers of Progression

Originally Posted by muffin

Good afternoon daz

More like it changes, the further you go, it grows as you do.

As for the other that a by product

Hey muff ..

Is it more that 'it' changes or is rather more your perception of it changes?


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by running

i said observation. dont understand how that can possibly bother u.

Running, hello! You are not bothering me, no worries Let me ask you, since you don't know me, why would you characterise it like that?

If something in you is uncomfortable or resistant to what I'm sharing, that's your right. And IMO you should simply feel completely free to own that, rather than having to tell me how I feel

However, nothing you say has bothered me. I will only call out when you have misstated me or how I feel (which you cannot know), or used labels to characterise me which are incorrect or irrelevant according to me.

We can label others and their feelings all we please, but likewise, they have the right to say, "no, that's not how I feel (LOL)" and "I have the right to counter your labels and say for myself who I am."

feeling is from the heart. i was speaking simply about moving towards subtler energies.

in doing so i find whom i am that is best suited for the travel. as i said in being myself is the most compassionate thing i can do. cause that is where the heart is most open and able to continue so.


in feeling is the quickest, easiest path for me. the heart knows the way in my experiemce.

i dont run into all those hypoethical problems you brought up. what i do works for me.

and your assumptions of problems have nothing to do with my expereince. like i said what i do works well for me.

Running, that's great that you have reflected and are certain you have no issues. That's all I was sharing...just food for thought on our journeys. If you heard me and reflected, then I honour that action in you. We are all here to engage and share and reflect, and to offer support and consideration and food for thought to one another.

I made no assumptions about you or anyone. Instead, I described some universal issues. The issues I describe are not at all hypothetical...they regularly occur in the real world. But as long as you realise that, then you can more easily assess whether or not they might ever be an issue for you personally

adding

its fine if you want to share your expeeince. but when you act like your experience is how it is. it becomes more about control than sharing an experience. which as i said earlier. no reason to continue this conversation.

Running - I was sharing from my experience and my observation, purely for your personal consideration. My observation is also a part of my broader experience. Everything I say and do is from me and of me, and cannot be from anyone else, hahaha! So no worries there.

Moving on to the rest of it, again, you don't need to judge and label me as this or that. Judging and labeling others, and telling others how they feel, is all extremely controlling behavior, and you've been doing that in the last several rounds of our discussion.

It doesn't bother me and it doesn't stick. I'm simply reflecting back to you that you yourself are doing the things you appear to see in others. And the reason you appear to see them, is at least in part because you yourself are engaged in them.

A suggestion...purely for your consideration. You may try leaving off judgment and labeling, and leaving off saying others feel this or that. And simply see if there's anything you can receive from them, and if there's anything you can give in return.

In my experience, there's always something you can receive, and if you make the effort then there's always something you can give -- even if it's just the most simple, everyday greeting of others by their name, saying hello, and being courteous and kind in our exchanges.

Being courteous and kind in our exchanges, being personal in our exchanges (including even simply greeting others by name and so forth), is one basic yet wonderful way we can all share in being and doing authentic love, day-to-day, in our word and in our deed.

Simple courtesies may seem like very little, but in fact, they're quite a lot and will always do quite nicely.

It's been quite nice chatting with you, and as always, I look forward to it again in future

Peace & blessings
7L

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by God-Like

In my opinion you can't have the infinite Self emanating / Being the individual self that experiences the physical mind-body .

The individual known as you and I that is experiencing the mind-body is experiencing a single point of perception that is not designed to be the infinite Self .

The mind-body matrix cannot handle the infinite that is why to realize and be Self it is not of the mind-body .

There is no separation that is dualistic and not what is taught in any tradition.

The body is energy/light, you are energy/light. Yes you can realize it all while still being alive and eating and drinking.

This is why I made a point of the non functioning bliss and the functioning bliss .

The difference is within the sense of self and not .

Walking and talking Bliss with burger in one hand and beer in the other, is a level of bliss that is self identified .

Do you understand the difference between that scenario and a bliss that doesn't entertain self and burgers?


x daz x

There is no difference. You are saying it is always out there somewhere sometime. That you can't live a life and realize what all the great traditions say you can.

The path is about eating a burger, living your life all the while as your true self as you call it.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by django

Let's say that Buddha and Jesus are two examples of people who discovered some fundamental truth. Did either Buddha or Jesus ever (let alone endlessly) promote 'the bliss'? Does running echo their wisdom in any way?

Jonesboy - hello there!

I see this one got overlooked, probably lost in the mix. I did want to bump this so that this gentleman's post doesn't go ignored, due to all our other posts.
He addressed it to you

Peace & blessings
7L

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Jonesboy - hello there!

I see this one got overlooked, probably lost in the mix. I did want to bump this so that this gentleman's post doesn't go ignored, due to all our other posts.
He addressed it to you

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by django

Let's say that Buddha and Jesus are two examples of people who discovered some fundamental truth. Did either Buddha or Jesus ever (let alone endlessly) promote 'the bliss'? Does running echo their wisdom in any way?

Yes they did..

Well the Buddha talked about bliss all the time, warned of the stages of bliss and how one can get trapped. Clear light mind is always associated with bliss. Realizing you are One Like Siva is filled with bliss.

Jesus talked about motion and rest, void/form and being in the present moment. When one has realized any of those two realizations both are very blissful.

If you were to look at the Buddhist Bhumi..

1 Normal State – Wandering mind. Some will often have 3-6 (or more) threads/dialogs of thought jumping around. Nothing is usually noticed regarding “energy”. Sometimes sense of hot/cold.

2 Temporary One Thread – In meditation, one quiets to one focused thread (as in mantra or concentration). At this state, one may begin to notice energy (if looking for it) and it often begin to feel like tingles or vibrations in the body.

3 Temporary quiet mind – One can begin to see/trace thoughts. Can feel the “movement” of energy and notice chakras.

4 Stable quiet meditation – One can perceive the nature/energy of mind. Can perceive astral experiences. Begin to notice “obstructions” in the flow of energy. Feel/see chakras in energy body. With practice, can begin to see auras.

5 Expansion of quiet mind to normal life – One begins to “see themselves” doing things. An example is seeing yourself getting angry, but can’t stop yourself. Significant control over energy flows. Become more resistant to sickness.

6 Quiet mind in life – Usually only one thread going, sometimes no threads. Can see and stop yourself from getting angry. All chakras open. The chakras start to “merge”. Less distinct chakra feeling. Can consciously perceive energy in others and surroundings.

7 Calm mind – No real thoughts unless there is something to do/decide. Meditation and life are the same. Body/mind energy field integrates and collapses. No meaningful energy feeling. Often described as nothingness or perceiving "consciousness/awareness". Many stop here and declare victory.

8 Noticing Oneness – Something “tickles” the calm mind. Curiosity returns. Begin to break beyond the local body-mind. Begin to perceive “light” (spiritual/cosmic/existence) energy. Energy body feels like every cell is vibrating in harmony. Level of "soul", in Christian/Islamic terms. Also, called the first bhumi 1. Great Joy: It is said that being close to enlightenment and seeing the benefit for all sentient beings, one achieves great joy, hence the name. In this bhūmi the bodhisattvas practice all perfections (pāramitās), but especially emphasizing generosity (dāna).


9 (2. Stainless): In accomplishing the second bhūmi, the bodhisattva is free from the stains of immorality, therefore, this bhūmi is named "stainless". The emphasized perfection is moral discipline (śīla).

10 (3. Luminous): The third bhūmi is named "luminous", because, for a bodhisattva who accomplishes this bhūmi, the light of Dharma is said to radiate for others from the bodhisattva. The emphasized perfection is patience (kṣānti).

11 (4. Radiant): This bhūmi is called "radiant", because it is said to be like a radiating light that fully burns that which opposes enlightenment. The emphasized perfection is vigor (vīrya).

12 (5. Very difficult to train): Bodhisattvas who attain this bhūmi strive to help sentient beings attain maturity, and do not become emotionally involved when such beings respond negatively, both of which are difficult to do. The emphasized perfection is meditative concentration (dhyāna).

13 (6. Obviously Transcendent): By depending on the perfection of wisdom, [the bodhisattva] does not abide in either saṃsāra or nirvāṇa, so this state is "obviously transcendent". The emphasized perfection is wisdom (prajñā).

14 (7. Gone afar): Particular emphasis is on the perfection of skillful means (upāya), to help others.

15 (8. Immovable): The emphasized virtue is aspiration. This, the "immovable" bhūmi, is the bhūmi at which one becomes able to choose his place of rebirth.

16 (9. Good Discriminating Wisdom): The emphasized virtue is power.

17 (10. Cloud of Dharma): The emphasized virtue is the practice of primordial wisdom.

18 Buddhahood.

I think it is important to mention that the "light" described at stage 8 is not a "visible" light. It is the clear light of mind/universal mind. Any visible color is an "arising" or translation of local mind (and not it).


Also, stages 1-7 relate to spiritual development at the local body-mind level. 8 and above are the integration/expansion into the realization of "ultimate reality". It is making the transition from stage 7 to stage 8 where often the debate in practices can originate. Additionally, many traditions declare stage 7 as being "done".


*These are the Bhumi's with commentary from my friend. Some additions to the Bhumi's has been added.

Level 8 from the first page would be the same as level 11 (4) (radiant) when using the Bhumi's.

Running is trying to explain to you what being Radiant is like.

* I also haven't really been following all the back and forth.

[jonesboy]

Some food for thought. A snippet from the Shiva Sutras.

The Shiva Sutras.

1.11. tritayabhokta viresah 42

The one who enjoys the oneness of the three states,
waking, dreaming and deep sleep in turiya becomes
the master of all organic energies.

1.12. vismayo yogabhumikah 44

The predominant sign of such a yogi is joy filled amazement.

1.13. iccha saktiruma kumari 46

His will is the energy of Lord Siva and it is called uma
and kumari, or
For such a yogi his will is one with the energy of Lord
Siva, unobstructable, completely independent, always
given to play.

1.14. drisyam sariram 49

This entire perceived world is his own self, or
His own body is just like an object to him.

1.15. hridaye cittasamghattad drisyasvapadarsanam 52

When his thoughts are diverted to the center of God
consciousness then he feels the existence of God consciousness
in oneness in the objective world and in
the world of negation.

1.17. vitarka atmajnanam 56

Any inference of such a yogi is knowledge of his own
real self.

1.18. lokanandah samadhisukham 57

The joy of his mystical trance (samadhi) is bliss for
the whole universe.

1.19. saktisandhane sanrotpattih 59

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that
which is willed occurs at once.

1.20. bhutasamdhana-bhutaprithaktvavisvasamghattah
63

By the greatness of this achievement of the energy of
will the yogi can focus his awareness and heal the
sick and suffering, separate elements from his body
and be free from the limitations of space and time.

1.21. suddhavidyodyaccakresatva-siddhih 66

(When this yogi does not desire limited powers and is
eager to attain the knowledge of universal being then)
. . . pure knowledge rises and by that knowledge he
becomes the master of the universal wheel.

Beautiful stuff :)

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Some food for thought. A snippet from the Shiva Sutras.

The Shiva Sutras.



Beautiful stuff :)

Agreed...very nice. Thanks for sharing

Peace & blessings
7L

[Alfor]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hello there Alfor. Yes and no, I'd say, in the context of this discussion. Yes for you and no, you as individuated consciousness are not identical at this moment in experience and realisation to all other individuated consciousness. Given this aspect of our incarnated reality, we are each walking our journey amidst the collective, progressing at our own pace and contributing to the greater evolution of all that is.

That is, this is not the non-duality forum and within our interbeing, it is skillful (prudent, wise, and loving) to acknowledge our individuated consciousness within the greater Unity.

Thus it is helpful to realise that for most, starting with a nondualistic (and often implying or imposing a uniformity of experience and realistion) approach is not the most skillful (authentically loving to the other, equally to the self) way to reach or engage with those who have not yet realised their unity within themselves, much less external to themselves.

Most folks understand that you don't begin maths and physics at quantum physics. You learn how to add 2 + 2 and various other basic rules from another who explains it to you at your level. Even whilst they may know quantum physics and themselves live there, they engage with you where you are, in the fullness of respect and authentic love for you. All whilst still retaining their (individuated and interconnected) current state of awareness.

Peace & blessings
7L

Heartfelt thanks 7L. Your post ‘nudged’ me into a new perspective.

Here is a contribution I posted on another forum after I read and considered your post:

----------------
Do what you find enjoyable, and build on that. What is most enjoyable is authentic love - for oneself, everyone, everything. But you will not be starting here.

You start by giving yourself love/understanding in all situations or as much as you possibly can, so much so that you are (in due course) overflowing with it. So much so that you start giving it away and it gets bigger; eventually you start seeing it reflected back in your environment; you start making a life living on and in authentic love.

Just try it for a spell. And the spell will 'catch' and as you 'keep at it', it will transform your life. But, at least initially, you must keep at it, ie, giving it, as love does not 'keep' if it is not given.

With best wishes for a lovely life,
--------------

Thanks again,

[jonesboy]

I am going to share a book that had a real impact on me with regard to love and what unconditional love really is. It is called Real Love by Greg Baer.

The following is from the book.

Real Love is a technique taught by Greg Baer, that shows us how we unconsciously use “Getting and protecting Behavior” like lying, acting like victims, clinging, attacking, running, to get what he calls “imitation love”. Read up some more on Unconditional Loving in the Teachings/Living section.

His book Real Love is highly recommended. It has changed the lives of many.

Here is a piece from Greg’s website that will help you get a taste of what “Real Love” is:

What is Real Love?

Real Love is caring about the happiness of another person without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s also Real Love when other people care about our happiness unconditionally. It is not Real Love when other people like us for doing what they want. Under those conditions we’re just paying for love again. We can be certain that we’re receiving Real Love only when we make foolish mistakes, when we fail to do what other people want, and even when we get in their way, but they don’t feel disappointed or irritated at us. That is Real Love (true unconditional love), and that love alone has the power to heal all wounds, bind people together, and create relationships quite beyond our present capacity to imagine.

If we don’t have enough Real Love in our lives, the resulting emptiness is unbearable. We then compulsively try to fill our emptiness with whatever feels good in the moment—money, anger, sex, alcohol, drugs, violence, power, and the conditional approval of others. Anything we use as a substitute for Real Love becomes a form of Imitation Love , and although Imitation Love feels good for a moment, it never lasts and never gives us the feeling of genuine happiness that Real Love provides.

Getting and Protecting Behaviors:

When we lack sufficient Real Love, we feel empty and afraid, conditions that are unbearably painful. In order to eliminate our emptiness, we use Getting Behaviors to fill ourselves with Imitation Love.

The Getting Behaviors include:

• Lying. Although it’s usually unconscious on our part, any time we do anything to get other people to like us—by accentuating our positive physical, mental, social, or occupational qualities—we are lying. With our lies, we earn the conditional approval of others (praise) and often the other forms of Imitation Love as well.

• Attacking. We’re attacking people when we use any behavior designed to modify their behavior with fear. We frighten or intimidate people with anger, authority, physical intimidation, guilt, and so on. When we attack people, we feel stronger. We feel a sense of power, which temporarily can be quite satisfying in the absence of Real Love.

•We’re Acting like victims when we point out what other people should have done for us. When we act hurt and maintain that we have been treated unfairly, we’re using guilt and obligation to persuade people that we are victims and that we deserve more than we are presently getting.

• Clinging. When we find people who give us some of the Imitation Love we crave, we often cling to them for more. To illustrate just one of many ways we can cling, imagine that a spouse or friend has decided to part company with you earlier than you had anticipated during an evening or weekend. If you say, “Do you really have to go now?” you’re clinging to him or her for more attention.


In order to diminish our fears, we use Protecting Behaviors, which include:

• Lying. From the time we were small children, we learned to hide or diminish our mistakes, flaws, and fears, because then people tended to withdraw their approval less.

•Attacking. Anger gives us a rush of power, and then we feel less helpless and afraid. In addition, when other people are attacking us, we can often get them to stop attacking us if we attack them in return.

•Acting like victims. When people are attacking us, they will often stop if we can act sufficiently wounded and accuse them of hurting us. Victims also frequently use variations on the expression, “It’s not my fault.”

•Running. One effective way to diminish our pain is simply to withdraw from it. We can run by physically leaving difficult situations or relationships, emotionally withdrawing from interactions or relationships, burying ourselves in our careers, and by using alcohol or drugs.

http://livingunbound.net/lessons-res...ove-greg-baer/

[jonesboy]

Unconditional Loving

Many of us go through life believing we are loving. Sometimes, we may even think that we are unconditionally loving. Ironically, the views we have of loving tend to be the result of our lifelong conditioning.

For many of us, our definition of loving is, “I will do anything you want me to do, in order to make you happy. In return you will love me the way I think I should be loved. There will be an unspoken rule that you will love me and honor me the way I think I should be loved and honored, and that I will , in exchange, change myself, or at least my behavior, or at the very least, my apparent behavior, to fit your definition of what loving is to you.”

For others of us, our definition of loving is, “You will do anything I want you to do, in order that you make me happy. You will love me in the ways I think I should be loved. If you don’t do this, you are failing to love me. And I will love you based on the ways that I define love. If you don’t accept the ways that I show love, you don’t understand love.”

In short, almost all of us think and act based on highly-conditioned models of loving, and some of us even consider ourselves to be unconditionally loving. The only times that we’re not unconditionally loving, in our own minds, is when others fail to meet our conditions. Is it any wonder that so many of us find what we think of as love to be so difficult and painful?


We play many roles in our lives: parent, child, partner, sibling, employer, employee, friend, citizen, and so on.

We all tend to have different definitions of what we think all our different roles should be, depending upon who it is we’re relating to, at the moment. We think we need to fit into all the roles we think are right for a given person or situation, and the roles we think others have defined for us. The way we relate to our children is often not the same as the way we relate to a friend, for instance. Similarly, the way we relate to our parents is usually different from the way we relate to a friend, which is, in turn, usually different from the way we relate with our boss or partner or neighbor. And in all these different relationships, we tend to think that we need to act a certain way, which is often in conflict with how we think the other person or people are expecting us to act. Yet, if someone asks us if we feel we are basically an authentic person, almost all of us would probably answer “yes”.

All this role-changing, second-guessing and trying to meet expectations while having expectations met, can lead to a lot of confusion, as well as a deep-seated, ongoing sense of internal conflict and anxiety. Not only are many of us changing our behavior in various situations, in order to fit into all these different roles our memories and imaginations have assigned; we also try to change to behave, or at least to appear to behave, in the ways we think the other person or people wants us to behave., or what we imagine is appropriate, based of society or religion We don’t necessarily try to behave according to how they think we should be, but rather, according to how we think they think we should be.

So, even though many of us try to be someone we think others want us to be, because they don’t really want us that way, we are actually being someone they don’t want us to be, while not being who we think we want to be, or who we think we actually are. Possibly most significantly, all of these virtual costume-changes leave us not only not being who we actually are, but leave us feeling very unsure concerning who we actually are, after all. And so, we are not really making anyone happy, while simultaneously avoiding reality entirely, while often generating a lot of confusion and frustration for all involved.

So, by the time we figure out what we think might be the right way to behave with a given person, in order to fulfill their expectations, and maybe even our own conditioned expectations at the same time, if we’re lucky, the other person may have already changed their mind on what they think we should be.

And so now, we often go scrambling once again to try to fit the new mold that is being created for us by another person’s ever-changing expectations, or rather, our ideas concerning their ever-changing expectations. When we realize that everyone else’s conditioning is every bit as inconsistent and ever-vacillating as our own, is it any wonder so little actual loving takes place?

And, please remember: we too often expect people to behave a certain way, so that we can love them unconditionally. We’re happy to love them unconditionally, as long as they meet our conditions. Since we are changing our behavior constantly for them, in order to try to match the expectations they have regarding us, that they think will make them happy.

And our minds tell us we do this because we love them so unconditionally. We often think something along the lines of:

“I mean c’mon, I’m ready to change who I am for you! How much more unconditionally loving can one get?”

And all we expect from them is their unconditional loving back, from them.

Now if for any reason they don’t treat us in the way we have defined as loving, “Well”, our thoughts grumble , “That is not acceptable! How can anyone love us unconditionally if they are not loving us the way we love them and the way we expect them to love us?”

This probably has something to do with the common phrase “It’s complicated!”

Of course it is. This is a script written for ongoing suffering of all kinds. But most of us don’t know any better. That is unconditional loving to us, according to our conditioning.

The book “Real Love” by Greg Baer helps us see things a bit differently. Greg shows us how we unconsciously use “Getting and Protecting Behaviors” of various types, to try to gain love and keep what we think of as love. Behaviors like lying, acting like victims, clinging, attacking, running, manipulating, all in order to get what he calls “imitation love”. We manipulate people and circumstances try to get love. Many of us have grown up believing that these kinds of behaviors are the only ways we can experience loving. We think we will be unloved and all alone if we are not pleasing others and making sure others love us, according to what we’re sure love is all about. Which is often quite different from what they think love is all about.

Mind stories!

We live as though we are slaves of the mind stories and labels that we think define what love is, and we used these stories to evaluate if what we’re experiencing with others is indeed love, or not. If we even recognize these conditioned stories at all, we are often too scared to let go of these stories because if we did, we would have no idea if we were getting real love, or not. As you may have noticed, for most of us, the concern tends to be about the love we think we’re getting, not the love we think we’re giving. This tends not to be an issue though, because everyone else is primarily focused on what they think they’re getting, or not getting, from us.

Can we really love without the stories?

Yes. Greg Baer in his book “Real Love” shakes the root of our entire definition of real love, in ways that play very well in the real world. He helps us change the way we define loving by showing us how our mind keeps us from experiencing the freedom of real love. The techniques described in Greg’s book help us to slowly let go of the tight grip that our conditioned memories and imaginations hold; the grip on stories about what constitues real love. Once the stories crumble, our experience of real love becomes, well, real. And this loving is much easier than the imitation love that our memories and imaginations tell us that we need to try to get and give.

This of course involves letting go of some old ways of doing things; old conditioned ways of relating to others in ways we’ve come to think of as loving. And, of course, this won’t always be easy, but the peace, the freedom, the happiness, and especially the loving we experience through giving (and therefore simultaneously receiving) Real Love are truly beyond anything we can imagine.

http://livingunbound.net/lessons-res...tional-loving/

I highly recommend this book.