Continuation of Meditation

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I guess it depends on ones practice.

If while you are meditating you are desire an experience. Visions, higher states it won't happen. Because all you are thinking about is what you want instead of finding silence. You have to learn to let go of all that and then you will achieve it. That is why i said meditation is really a lesson in letting go.

If we are being honest we know there is a sitting practice but there is also a mindfulness practice one can do at all times. Or try to do :)
That is the honest answer people will try to be mindful during the day and often. It is desire to practice mindfulness or anything else during those periods that helps improve the quality of ones life and progress spiritually. Hunger for it, thirst for it Jesus said and he was right.

I don't think using Jesus to fortify your own views actually lends any credibility to them. I understand that tactic may have worked for you in the past, but in my eyes it merely indicates that you can't speak on your own merits. This final assertion 'he was right' is obviously a power play that's being used to assert your position as right. It's a futile endeavour on my part to speak with righteous people.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by VinceField

Again, please explain how you believe the ideas are contradictory. I clearly explained how the ideas do not contradict, so rather than passing unspecific judgements, please provide something of value here.



This is true, although it has very little to do with what I have been saying. We are discussing the purpose and motivation for a path of spiritual practice. We are not discussing how to focus the mind during meditation.



Right, focusing on one's desires for attainment during meditation practice is unwise. Again, this has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

The point is, you meditate, I meditate, we all meditate for a reason. That reason is born from a particular desire. The fruits of our own individual practice are directly influenced by the nature of our desires. If we have an unhealthy craving for enlightenment and unreasonable expectations, our practice will likely suffer as a consequence. If we have a skillful desire to benefit from our practice and carry a wise perspective and skillful effort into its undertaking, then we will reap the fruits of our practice.

This has nothing to do with what you should do during meditation. It is entirely to do with the purpose. I'll simplify it as much as possible: You see your mind demonstrating qualities that you desire to change. You decide what changes you want to make. You engage in a practice that aims at aiding in that change. We are discussing the relationship that the person has with their desire to change. If it is a healthy relationship, all is good. But there is no escaping the desire. It is a fundamental and necessary aspect of the process.

It's really basic ideas we are working with here. I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from but I can't say I'm surprised.

Lets just say we can agree on that much (bolded), and understand that I don't advocate desire at all.

Your underhand jibe that concluded the post is a belittlement and I understand that's a behaviour that's being used to asserting the upper hand.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

Ok. The contradiction is there's a good desire that isn't applicable in practice, but when does practice start and when does it end?

This "contradiction" is a far stretch from the discussion you assigned it to.

It's not about somehow turning on or off desire. The desire is there. It is driving the practice whether you are aware of it or not. Regarding the idea you expressed here, it's about where you focus your attention. If you focus your attention on your desires and project yourself into fantasies about future attainments during meditation, that takes you away from the task at hand. This doesn't mean that the person doesn't have a desire to meditate. If there wasn't that desire, the person wouldn't be meditating. The desire drives the practice.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

Your underhand jibe that concluded the post is a belittlement and I understand that's a behaviour that's being used to asserting the upper hand.

Simply noticing the pattern. It's not meant as an insult, but rather as a subtle "wake-me-up" of sorts. It's become apparent that your somewhat rigid set of beliefs prevents you from clear comprehension of some rather simple concepts. I apologize if any offense was taken.

understand that I don't advocate desire at all.

Regarding your view on desire, if you choose to allow aspects of your mind go unexamined due to preconceived beliefs, I am sorry to hear that. I don't quite understand how one can refuse to advocate something that is an intrinsic aspect of the human psyche, involved in just about every mental and physical process that we experience. It's like saying, "I don't advocate thought." Well, too bad, you have no choice but to use it, but you do have the choice of how to use it. Skillful thoughts? Unskillful thoughts? Skillful desires? Unskillful desires? The choice is yours and cannot be escaped.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by VinceField

Simply noticing the pattern. It's not meant as an insult, but rather as a subtle "wake-me-up" of sorts. It's become apparent that your somewhat rigid set of beliefs prevents you from clear comprehension of some rather simple concepts. I apologize if any offense was taken.

I don't have rigid beliefs, don't prop myself up with exterior things like religious tenets, texts, Jesus's or any nature of paradigm.

The offense was intended, but none taken.

Regarding your view on desire, if you choose to allow aspects of your mind go unexamined due to preconceived beliefs, I am sorry to hear that. I don't quite understand how one can refuse to advocate something that is an intrinsic aspect of the human psyche, involved in just about every mental and physical process that we experience. It's like saying, "I don't advocate thought." Well, too bad, you have no choice but to use it, but you do have the choice of how to use it. Skillful thoughts? Unskillful thoughts? Skillful desires? Unskillful desires? The choice is yours and cannot be escaped.

If I examine it in my own mind, it arises and passes like other experiences, but it disrupts the meditative mind because it's a personally reactive occurance.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by Gem

I don't have rigid beliefs, don't prop myself up with exterior things like religious tenets, texts, Jesus's or any nature of paradigm.

You have displayed a tendency towards fabricating arguments where they don't exist or when they aren't valid and projecting your own ideas into discussions where they don't belong. I can't comment on the nature of your mind, but I can comment on the nature of your behavior, and it displays indications of attachment to beliefs and a degree of rigidity.

If I examine it in my own mind, it arises and passes like other experiences, but it disrupts the meditative mind because it's a personally reactive occurance.

Again, this has nothing to do with what we were discussing and conveniently misses the point. Also, you have yet to bring any contradictions to light.

Take care

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I don't think using Jesus to fortify your own views actually lends any credibility to them. I understand that tactic may have worked for you in the past, but in my eyes it merely indicates that you can't speak on your own merits. This final assertion 'he was right' is obviously a power play that's being used to assert your position as right. It's a futile endeavour on my part to speak with righteous people.

Wow Gem.

I was just using a standard method of showing how established recognized teachers have said the same thing. Kinda like writing a paper in school and providing sources.

I think you have a big issue with authority figures. I have noticed anything even closely related to it get's you going. Your not going to listen.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Wow Gem.

I was just using a standard method of showing how established recognized teachers have said the same thing. Kinda like writing a paper in school and providing sources.

I think you have a big issue with authority figures. I have noticed anything even closely related to it get's you going. Your not going to listen.

On that note, this overly strong aversion to perceived authority figures, external sources of knowledge and instruction, and spiritual teachers is certainly not the result of a balanced perspective. Sometimes we are blind to our own inclinations. Perhaps it is something that can be worked on. Good luck

Wow first day on this forum and i can feel all these bad vibes from everywhere .How is it that so much hatred is being directed at each other when everyone is striving for peace and prosperity??Basically we all are striving for the same serenity.Anyways i will hush now.

[VinceField]

Some may confuse my frankness and directness for hostility, but I'd like to make it clear that I wish the best for Gem and everyone else I engage in conversation with here and I don't say things that I believe will hurt anyone in any way. Not sure if you were referring to me Chris, but I thought I'd put that out there anyway. I think it helps to read the actual words and see how they apply rather than trying to guess what everyone's intentions are. It's very easy to take something the wrong way through this particular medium of interaction.