Need to know?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by TaoSandwich

Well, I suppose that the reality came before the word, so even if I wouldn't rediscover meditation, someone had to discover it before all of these rules and techniques, or even the word meditation was applied to it. The words and techniques are useful, if only because they indicate that there is more than simply sitting there for a period of time, but they are only useful if you see for yourself instead of following others' words.

There are so many pitfalls in being prescribed a technique that I could make a list, but it comes down to trying to get it right and acting obediently to some kind of authority.

The experts of meditation will refer to antiquity where one follows the other intergenerationally under the premise 'this works' and has been proven to work for 3000 years.

Recently a person made a post about going to a Buddhist meditation where the monks derided his current practice in order to prescribe the rote which is conformed to under the tradition. Then having cast doubt on what the person was already doing in order to replace it with their own system of obedience that they themselves were subjugated by... and follow.

I imagine that it took decades for meditation to become something relatively widespread, if only because of the difficulty of describing what it is before the language for it was created. Now it is easier to convey, but people also get trapped by the words. Catch 22, I suppose.

-TaoSandwich

On the contrary, the discussion of meditation is the way in which it spreads, so the words are very important, however it became misguided whe the conversation turned into words of instruction and spiritual life became a charade of authority and obedience.

The authoritive voice of others become owr own internal dialogue as we fabricate an imaginary authority who reiterates the commands of the original instruction. Where is all this narrative really coming from?

[kris]

Originally Posted by Gem

Isn't what we have aquired as knowledge made into representations that we access from memory. I know what a tree is, but in my memory there's a symbol of tree which I refer to as 'knowledge'.

The inquiry is, am I now perceiving a tree outside my window for 'what it is', or am I seeing it through the lens of what I know a tree to be?

Seems like this is something for you to meditate upon.

[Black Sheep]

What if you had never even heard of meditation, or lets say there was no word 'meditation' at all... how would you approach it?

I think that there are people or means of doing so without knowing what it is. And do so today, they may call it by other labels, but inadvertently do the same.

you are out of luck if you want to 'discover' meditation all over again.

I disagree on this point.
There are certain practices and truths that are able to be discovered over and the world over irregardless of time and space. When a person is adept at particular skills, or "ready" the information is easily accessed and readily assimilated. The person may not label it specifically "meditation" but it's still the same methodology.

I dont know if this will help at all but i can tell you i have not forgotten what i learned about meditation but i disregard what i have learned and every day every time i meditate i try to start fresh. Every day is different and as long as i am not consumed by my mind i feel its some sort of success, but also there are so many paths for all our personal likes and dislikes, whatever works for someone may not work for you, its all about you and what works for you not everyone else!

[Mr Interesting]

Indeed Pradeepta, if I even see what you're saying or merely have adapted what I think you might be saying to what I might want to say and seeing what you've said brings to the surface more clarity to what I might want to say even whilst I still really don't know what that is.

A need to know followed by believing we know followed by a suspension where the knowing sits to one side and the watching sits on the other and in the middle is plain old being and experiencing.

I've been sitting with some pain for about four years now. Started way deep in meditation came up over time and even is felt out of meditation and all through this I've had insights to what it might be but each time it didn't really do anything to drop the pain but at the same time the relationship between me and my pain... developed?

Anyways, that's a long story and the day before yesterday I went looking for info on the ribcage and what it means spiritually and it was all about boundaries and I'm like what does that mean? But I'd also been reading this stuff where our pain has a story and if we listen to our bodies it'll tell us... and eventually I've got all these ideas about what it, the pain might be, how it can be looked at etc but it's just kinda gotten really complicated and I really have no idea... there's too many for starters and I kinda lack the ability to cohesitize it all... and nobodies really sayin' either, just these vague hints almost that in themselves hint that either the person offering them doesn't really know either and/or it's almost gotta be that way where it all gets kinda silly and maybe just kinda throwing it all out or watching it all just twirling and gyrating around will have what counts, what will work, sticking on the edges to ooze down the walls and eventually pool into a significance I can follow the steps with.

Failure again then... accept that, this pain is just as stubborn as I am! Then around the corner, whistling like a happy wino, comes this idea that I don't actually have any boundaries... what? I'm hurting because I've set boundaries and the boundaries are the need to know what the pain is.

So in the end it's all got to be suspended but it's also all got to gathered up too... that's the bit I think which will eventually win through. That if it's all got to be gathered up just to be let go of then why even bother collecting it all up... but you gotta climb the mountain before seeing you don't have to climb the mountain... mountain are just flat ground that happens to be sloping, down looking one way and up looking the other.

Originally Posted by Gem

There are so many pitfalls in being prescribed a technique that I could make a list, but it comes down to trying to get it right and acting obediently to some kind of authority.

The experts of meditation will refer to antiquity where one follows the other intergenerationally under the premise 'this works' and has been proven to work for 3000 years.

Recently a person made a post about going to a Buddhist meditation where the monks derided his current practice in order to prescribe the rote which is conformed to under the tradition. Then having cast doubt on what the person was already doing in order to replace it with their own system of obedience that they themselves were subjugated by... and follow.

Those are the pitfalls inherent in 1. not trusting yourself and 2. Looking to someone else to trust (instead of trying to build that trust). There will always be someone willing to impose their own way upon you... but even this imposition is useful if you just take it as a suggestion and not absolute truth and give it a try. Despite all of the above problems, this isn't a problem with method per se... it is simply a problem with lack of self-trust and with people who seek to impose their views. The views themselves are not the problem, as they are often what has worked for that other person.

I started my meditative practice with no direction, and only after I personally got the gist of what meditation was, did I begin to add in practices that I read about to refine my own practice. Techniques and practices aren't bad. They have drastically improved my practice. However, some people might need, as Sunsoul mentioned, to take a practice and keep at it, KNOWING that it isn't the only way, but learning to use it as a way to better understand meditation until they can add other practices onto it. As long as they don't get attached to the idea of something as "the only way", I don't see how this is more harmful.

Originally Posted by Gem

On the contrary, the discussion of meditation is the way in which it spreads, so the words are very important, however it became misguided whe the conversation turned into words of instruction and spiritual life became a charade of authority and obedience.

The authoritive voice of others become owr own internal dialogue as we fabricate an imaginary authority who reiterates the commands of the original instruction. Where is all this narrative really coming from?

No "on the contrary" here. The words are very important, but quite difficult. I'd imagine that early on, though, the people who "discovered" meditation were more interested in describing what they were doing to bemused onlookers who wondered why they sat still with their eyes closed and a look of peace on their face than they were in saying "SHUT UP. SIT IN FULL LOTUS. FOLLOW ME." The language developed, as all language does, as a way to describe the reality... and once others wanted to experience this reality, then so called "authorities" popped up.

It all comes back to self-trust, though. That is why (ironically about to quote "the ancients") in Chinese Ch'an Buddhism, one of the central ideas was to discover strength, peace and insight within yourself and only then, seek a teacher to challenge you and help to further refine you. The point, of course, being that one would be far less susceptible to a false teacher once they have figured things out for themselves. A post doctoral PhD student might not be as experienced as their professor, but they are experienced enough to know when their advisor is putting forward blatant falsehoods. A high school science student, however, has to follow that same advisor without question.

-TaoSandwich

[Gem]

Originally Posted by kris

Seems like this is something for you to meditate upon.

I do think it gets to the heart of the issue, because figurative trees aside, is the meditation new today, or it is drawn through the experiences of the past?

[kris]

The lens of acquired knowledge cannot be wiped clean, at least in this life. But it can be replaced with a new lens, i.e., with corrections to what we thought was knowledge and later found to be not true. When you look out your window and see a tree, you should be able to confirm or refute your prior knowledge of what a tree is. In either case, your best recourse is acceptance. The same should apply to today's meditation.

[kkfern]

Originally Posted by Gem

Is it possible to disregard everything people have said and everything you've heard and go into it as knowing nothing at all about it?

What if you had never even heard of meditation, or lets say there was no word 'meditation' at all... how would you approach it?

sure it is possible probably even better that way.

how would i approach it. it is kind of like wondering about something. when you do not have the answer and you just blank out wondering about it.

kk

[VinceField]

The idea isn't to let go of what you know about meditation. There is a particular way that each person meditates, a particular method, a particular way of directing the mind that is needed to meditate, and without this there would be no meditation at all. The idea is rather to let go of everything that gets in the way of your meditation, which is essentially everything unrelated to your meditation, plus probably a whole bunch of stuff related to meditation. But, not all of it! You still need to know what meditation is, why you are doing it, and how to do it. Otherwise you are either not doing it, or in the very least not doing it right.