Delusions of Choice

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Gem

I know humans like to think that they have a choice, but my observations reveal that people are compelled, and that they don't choose very much at all.

The Earth keeps turning and nobody has a choice about that, and in view of this simple fact, I would hesitate to say to anyone, 'it's your choice,' because clearly, so much of life is destined, and the wind was unchosen, but it blows for everyone.

Another consideration is consequence. Choices have consequences, and even if it's true that I do have a choice at this moment, this choice will have some unforeseeable and unchosen consequences.

The third aspect is conditioning, and all people are influenced by their upbringing, so all the matters of the past influence todays choice. The past must influence it because 'we learn from our mistakes'. In so saying, choices are conditioned by past experience, so people are compelled to act as they do, based on that conditioning.

In the end, although we like to think we are 'free to choose' there are so many things that just happen, consequences that we can't avoid and a past that influences the decisions we make, so at least to a very large degree, we are not actually 'free to choose'.

Thanks

I'm wont to think that to a certain extent what you are saying seems correct... but I think if you take that as your indication of the 'past' and then try to program the 'future' around it you are missing the point.

Someone once said he had come so that people would have life, and have it more abundantly.... personally I take that to mean that while what you say seems correct, the powers that be are actively working to make it not as correct as it may seem today. IOW while we may seem very limited in the choices we allow ourselves to make today, the overall trend is to try to reverse that situation, not leave it the same or make it worse. (whereas our every instinct would be to take it to extremes and exterminate the ability to choose entirely). But as may or may not immediately be obvious, you can't get to a place with more choices by programming in the ability for more choices... that only gets you less choices because now there is more programming. So 'social activism' can never fix whatever might be wrong. It is very much a conundrum for us... But it is nice to think the powers that be have an understanding of that and many other things we don't want to look at and can work out a nice solution for us :)

[Gem]

Originally Posted by blackraven

Thanks for this reply, Gem. Yesterday in talking in my last post I was revisiting the past and it didn't feel comfortable. I felt I was getting emotional and starting the self-loathing thing, which I had thought was long past. "Persuasion, coercion and manipulation" can damage a person's self-esteem and belief in their ability to use their own mind. I am no longer so vulnerable as things such as what I spoke of have hardened my skin and helped with dignity and respect for self. Now I'm cautious of intentions that fall outside of myself in order to meet another person's agenda.

Blackraven

The past is fraught, that's fer sure. And it's ironic that I question the freedom of choices against the influences that guide them while also giving importance to personal empowerment. I agree that coercion is disempowering and manipulation is reliant on plying people's vulnerability, and altogether damaging to peoples' self esteem, and that a tough skin is sometimes necessary for preserving a gentle inner being.

Intention, in my view, is the crux of choice, and even though it's evident that choice is influenced by the environment in the immediate term and society in terms of conditioning, the nature of a persons intention leads them to act in a beneficial or harmful manner.

First is what is called 'good' intentions, which are fine, but goodness is no excuse to act rashly and carelessly, and it's well known that disasterous outcomes arise from good intentions, too.

Yesterday, I examined Kant's philosophy on ethics, and he said that if you help others in order to derive a warm fuzzy feeling for yourself, then your actions are not well intended. I have met people who had become addicted to that fuzzy warmth and taken advantage of vulnerable folk in order to invoke it for themselves, so I had to agree with Kant in that regard.

We need to be ultra-careful in examining the truth of our intentions, because it isn't about good or bad as much as it is to do with the purity of intention... and pure intention is a subject I thought a lot about recently... due to some things I saw that I considered to be lacking in care. I think I have the beginings of a thesis in that, purifying the mind/soul enables pure intention, and the purest intention is the intention to purify yourself.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Paiganrose

What is the term 'free'? Free is the air we breathe, free is the warmth we feel with the sun rays, we do have freedom, much moreso than the times beforehand however still limited in our modern day of age (acknowledged). The ability to discern conditioning in any form is setting you free to make different choices than you normally would if you weren't consciously aware. The question would be then if are aware, would you make a different choice? That is totally up to you and your freedom to choose.

'Free', in this context, is in regard to whether we determine our own choices or if our choices are guided (or pre-determined) by our past and conditioning.

I am a Spiritualist and my belief is that we are God...or that we are a part of God experiencing life in our form. This comes from a divine choice - do we want to be separate from God in order to experience life for God? We don't have to however we choose to (hence our lives here right now). Also the beauty in that is that for every choice that we make in our lives be it conditioned or not, we have the ability to re-living that choice and making different decisions on our never ending story. IF we are not happy with the outcomes of this choice, we always have the opportunity to make a different decision...if not then we keep going until we do and are truly happy with it.

If a person says, 'we learn from our mistakes,' or, 'we live and learn,' then we could say that our past experiences determine what we choose today.

Yes as the saying goes...as above so below. Yin and yang...however this should not frighten everyone to make choices overall...based on the overall consequence that could 'possibly' occur. Otherwise we would never separate from God because we can only focus on the fear of what love could bring.

Yes we may not be an omniscient being in forseeing everything as God does, otherwise we wouldn't detach ourselves and experience things first hand. To me it's all in the experiencing and if you see this as conditioning then so be it.

Conditioning means that today's actions are consequences of actions of the past. I don't mean that in a Newtonian sense where one snooker ball affects another, though. I mean one decides things based on their upbringing and their past experience (as I mentioned above). I don't mean to attach a negative connotation to 'conditioning' because yin/yang pervades everything and conditioning has positive and negative aspects.

As I touched on above, our ability to re-live circumstances, situations and decisions are never ending. Be it good or bad..especially the bad, we have the option in re-living it again so that we can make it right....the freedom of choice in that situation then becomes either an enlightening experience or you can make the same decision again and re-live the same experience.

Yep, live and learn.

I have made bad choices in my life

We all have.

and thought GOD WHY MEEEEE!! Then I was faced with the same situations later in my life and thought..wait on I've been down this path before...I can choose differently now..and I did and living better for it (not without my pitfalls here and there). I learned that life will keep bringing these situations to us (especially the not so good ones) to allow us to come to peace with the choice that we make. IF we are not at peace with the choices, then our thoughts and (un)conscious being (especially in the negative) will keep attracting it to our lives. That's why I say that if the decision is made in Divine Love, then there is nothing but peace.

I guess this brings me back to what I mentioned to Blackraven about 'pure intentions'... as adverse outcomes create questions like, 'why do I always do this dumb as thing?' and we realise the thing that causes the cycle, and deal with it, thus making ourself pure, and hence, become more pure intended.

Thanks Paiganrose

[Gem]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

I'm wont to think that to a certain extent what you are saying seems correct... but I think if you take that as your indication of the 'past' and then try to program the 'future' around it you are missing the point.

Based on what I said, where a person is now is where the past has led them to be, the decision they make today is the outcome of that past, and the future is a destiny that the person must travel.

Someone once said he had come so that people would have life, and have it more abundantly.... personally I take that to mean that while what you say seems correct, the powers that be are actively working to make it not as correct as it may seem today. IOW while we may seem very limited in the choices we allow ourselves to make today, the overall trend is to try to reverse that situation, not leave it the same or make it worse. (whereas our every instinct would be to take it to extremes and exterminate the ability to choose entirely). But as may or may not immediately be obvious, you can't get to a place with more choices by programming in the ability for more choices... that only gets you less choices because now there is more programming. So 'social activism' can never fix whatever might be wrong. It is very much a conundrum for us... But it is nice to think the powers that be have an understanding of that and many other things we don't want to look at and can work out a nice solution for us :)

Am I free to make my dreams come true, or am I destined to this path of mine? More likely it's grey area in between, but the known factor is, people make choices.

There are obvious constraints, like, one may wish to go boating now, but must await the tide, so their decision is determined by the environment, and since the tide is low, the time must be filled in a way other than boating, so perhaps a movie or some shopping or a stroll along the shore, and it starts to rain slightly, so decide, first shopping, since the weather isn't conducive to strolling and I'll need an umbrella after the film anyway... The person arrives at: 1) umbrella 2) go see a film, and then, since the tide is in; 3) go boating.

Many things influenced the decisive process, and the person's choices were driven by (mostly) environmental factors that they had no choice over.

I have no idea what 'powers that be' are.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Gem

In the end, although we like to think we are 'free to choose' there are so many things that just happen, consequences that we can't avoid and a past that influences the decisions we make, so at least to a very large degree, we are not actually 'free to choose'.

Thanks

I think part of how our conscious mind works is we think we're in control and choose, but we really don't. There was a scientific experiment that showed that choices are first made in the unconscious mind, then the conscious mind acts on it afterwards. We seem to be compelled by the unconscious mind, which stores all the information of our lives.

This might be part of why we often fail when we try to do things, even if we want it badly.. things like trying to lose weight or quit drinking. Lots of times there's something sabotaging our efforts, but we don't know what it is. We consciously want to break habits, but are compelled to continue in them. That's not always the case of course, but it's pretty common.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

I think part of how our conscious mind works is we think we're in control and choose, but we really don't. There was a scientific experiment that showed that choices are first made in the unconscious mind, then the conscious mind acts on it afterwards. We seem to be compelled by the unconscious mind, which stores all the information of our lives.

I'm not sure that control reflects on power. At face value, it seems that the boss is powerful because he wields a lot of influence... and if that's true, what does it say about the workers' ability to choose?

Anyway... it's pretty doubtless that the past at least influences today's choices, and today, environmental circumstances determine what we do.

There was a social experiment where 2 kinds of men's sunglasses were sold by a street vendor. One kind were plain black shades and the other kind were loud elvis glasses with golden rims. He first located his trolley against a plain wall background and the men all bought the plain black ones, but when he moved the trolley in front of a lingerie store window, 60% of men purchased the elvis rims. There must be hundreds of instances.

I'm led to believe that choice isn't actually a predeterminer, but rather, a response to overall circumstances.

This might be part of why we often fail when we try to do things, even if we want it badly.. things like trying to lose weight or quit drinking. Lots of times there's something sabotaging our efforts, but we don't know what it is. We consciously want to break habits, but are compelled to continue in them. That's not always the case of course, but it's pretty common.

Exactly, habits are hard to break, generally speaking, and people are compelled to do what they do.

anyone who thinks we don't have free will or choice hasn't observed a two year old.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by elisi

anyone who thinks we don't have free will or choice hasn't observed a two year old.

What have these observations revealed on the subject?

[froebellian]

Interesting thread, I have been writing recently on my blog and in other areas of my theory and conclusion that free will is an illusion - that we are led to believe we have choices but they are already predestined.
That is, even if we deliberately go against what is the best option we we wind back to where we should be.

I have exercised free will and lets say I have strayed off the path too often and suffered for it, so how can free will really exist when I consciously went against what was destined?

Surely then destiny prevails, not to say I must cave to it but find a balance to control when I can face certain things.

We choose to accept certain things... in my case I am at a standstill because I am on a path once I get back on I cannot stop but until I do nothing I do will happen so I choose to be in stasis but know my time will be limited.

[God-Like]

I was drawn to this chap a few months ago .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner

I reckon it touches on what Gem is speaking of .

(As quoted on wikipedia)

He was a firm believer of the idea that human free will was actually an illusion and any human action was the result of the consequences of that same action. If the consequences were bad, there was a high chance that the action would not be repeated; however if the consequences were good, the actions that led to it would be reinforced. He called this the principle of reinforcement.

x daz x