Narcissists and Aging

Hi, thank you Izz for your compassion.

I feel sad this has happened to you and your former friend.

Trouble I had while I was in it in the past is that I knew nothing about tactics and the vocabulary for it so I would not even know what to search for.

I feel it has sort of exploded now with this information on the net, you tube etc, it was not like that before, in the past.

I hope they could somehow introduce it in school as a subject.

When I have studied the narc's partner I have seen that it truly does try to object etc but it always end up not doing that and let the narc win. So I think that the times this parent has left, emotional, it is when it sees that someone is not like this parent is, does not let the narc win.

Also sadly this has become normal to them all. They don't react to the brutality of it so when I or anyone else on the outside becomes part of this and sees this and react much stronger to it and question why they don't it's get obvious they have been in it for way too long.

The other family members gets real, shields off, when not around the narc and from what I can tell it is that way too, even if it is more careful, the narc's partner.

I myself would not be able to handle having a partner that is like the narc is, but it's partner does stay and so I am guessing they are tangled up with one another in a way that is non of my business.

I have been somewhat insecure on how to try to still emotionally support this other parent and somehow go around the narc, or to try to keep the narc at an acceptable level for us all, but it seems to me now that the narc's partner, my luvs other parent, is helping me too building a new kind of bridge so it won't loose touch with a grandchild or grandchildren. I think the more isolated this parent gets with the narc, the more dangerous it is. I can also see and I've seen this for the longest time that this parent do not want to be "in the way".

My luv thinks that, because even if I did not get that then, this other parent does genuinely like me, that I have empowered this parent by my attitude alone (protesting against the narc's poor attitude against it at times) and that could be why I have been seen as a threat by the narc. Plus I'm just different, I suppose.

To me non of this should have happened in the first place. I've always believed in generations importance, family. I've told my luv this too that I don't want him to one day look back at this when both parents are gone and wish he had handled it differently. That the best way he can to heal and move forward.

The narc-parent has been up to so many destructive things that other too react, are victims of it, so now I know I am not alone and that we are together in this. Before I felt very much alone, outcast.

Wish you healing on your way forward :)

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by RedEmbers

That's a hard lesson to learn.

Thank you. :)
That's funny you should say that, RE.
Since they do not change even in their 90s...you know EXACTLY how to handle them!
Rather than me becoming a doormat, as mentioned...I became a very strong and clear person...and they knew
NOT to mess with me
with their mind games, which are MANY!

One trait I like, others might not, is I don't need anyone as others seem to, have no co-dependence in me.
Living with an alcoholic and a super narcissist, wow, do you ever learn to not want or need anything from anyone;
ya know, approval, praise, companionship, help of any kind...there's no expectation.
Sounds sad to some but, it works! I found happiness with me and God!
That apparently was 'my' Journey of independence and knowing Who to look
towards for Love and Wisdom.

[RedEmbers]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Thank you. :)
That's funny you should say that, RE.
Since they do not change even in their 90s...you know EXACTLY how to handle them!

True.
I was out people watching the other day and noticed that I am much better at noticing the kinds of behaviours which I am now staying away from.

So I was watching one man in particular and thinking "No Thanks", then I turned my attention to some really caring and decent people and struck up connections elsewhere.
The power of being a wall flower and simply observing people is now my superpower.
I am also enjoying the power of the words "No Thanks"

[Izz]

Originally Posted by asearcher

When I have studied the narc's partner I have seen that it truly does try to object etc but it always end up not doing that and let the narc win. So I think that the times this parent has left, emotional, it is when it sees that someone is not like this parent is, does not let the narc win.

I'm very sorry to hear this

What I can tell you, based on experience, is that the narcissist energy leech abuser is an expert at sowing games of confusion - making the partner potentially question how they see reality, in a "confusion fog" even if it means for a very long extended period of time. This of course does not excuse the partner's behavior of irresponsibility

As I have said before, about that incident involving public figures for example (the big names I told you about in PM, can't name names here), when one really enables a toxic energy leech narcissist, disaster can strike

Speaking of narcissist and aging - abusive family member accused and indirectly blamed me for something again

This time, it's about something that happened years ago of which a toxic relative asked me to get sushi for myself when we were all at a restaurant but was not honest about who was paying (I did not know that the relative was dishonest)

Abusive family member just now just indirectly blamed me for it (I know she's blaming me, she's transparent to me at this point) - and I just can't with such people. And she wonders why I would rather invest in other connections instead of exhibit loyalty or whatever she expects in that twisted mind of hers

But it's good to dismantle that "Confusion fog" I mentioned

I don't know what to "say" anymore. There seem to be no ending story to that individual. I just hope you can get distance from such an individual so it won't be able to hurt, make you angry etc.

I remember a kind of fog I was in when I was having a psychopath for a boyfriend and so I was sensing so much that there was danger right under the surface and all his tactics working in all sorts of ways

but still I know i looked at him as if he was not a good person. I was not in this fog when it came how he treated others. But i was in a fog when it came to me. And I think my brain just took over and protected me.

As for my luv's other parent who is no narc I think the narc takes so much energy from this someoene that it just do not have enough.

What I am actually in one way pleased about is that others now for themselves have experienced that the narc is not the star it wants you to think it is and how it really treats family members.

I have noted that it is us who are not part of the family that reacts more to it, but there are different levels of it. I usually go 10 levels down where as others may go 3 or 5.

Also I believe it was Traveler that wrote (different thread) that all this gets to be normal and this is why there is no reaction. I don't know enough of the parent's background but my guess is that if this was normal where this parent came from that could be why it was taught to not think it was so bad - while me had a very strong reaction to it, thinking what the hell are you doing?! You're leaving your kid in this? This is no discussion. This is a bully, an abuser going after your kid - and you leave? But that was how I looked at the situation. And had this other parent looked at the situation the way I did I am thinking and hoping it would react and not leave. Complicated stuff, I suppose.

[Izz]

I know too well the meaning of such a fog and I think the narc's partner has been put in that "confusion fog"

It is more difficult than what it looks on the outside - the narc's partner might have been forced subtly to internalize contradicting beliefs - confusion - more confusion - ergo, such a fog gets heavier

Of course this does not in any way excuse the other parent enabling the narcissist as there are children involved

Sometimes, I can't help but pity anyone who gets to be the golden child - unfortunately, the golden child would internalize potentially more confusion even more so than a scapegoat. The "confusion" part is the hazard when it comes to dealing with energy leech narc abusers and only those victimized know this so well. However the golden child could also break free with the help of grounding and balancing from others

I'm mainly focused on some of my goals in life currently, outside of that narc abuser, and because of her as well as other several narcs I had to deal with - I'm able to both learn and articulate some very vital life lessons

That's good Izz, built your life and chose people to make you stronger and more far away from the narc, as sadly someone who is damaged for life will only do damage to other people's lives. The only question is once you know that and you still allow that to happen than you are your own worst enemy.

You see things so clearly already that I think it is pretty clear where you are going. You're in the middle of it right now but one day you won't be.

I have before told my luv how hurt and disappointing I was that he for instance did not stand up for me when his scapegoat sibling did and wondered how much more I had to put up with before, or even, he was to react. I have always had a strong instinct to protect, was that way in school too, if someone bullied someone else I would rather join the one who was bullied than to be part of the popular gang. It is just something that goes so deep within me I can't look the other way. I did not know it then or thought about it but my real dad was the same way, mom would say he would cut in between even if it put himself at risk or in trouble and there were consequences, maybe it is in the genes.

I did not know this then but later on he had told my mom he had been somewhere (with other people around) where I had been too (somewhere in the room) and he had said there was only one person in the room who did not want something from him and that was me and that he felt I loved him for him and gave her thanks for having giving birth to me. He saw through games and I think he could get very angry when people did not think he did not see them, those games. I remember when I was very young I had this great feeling that my dad loved me for me, not if I was good at this or that, he just loved me. I could feel his love in his hugs, in his eyes. I think I felt more loved by him than I did my mom. I have at times thought what if my dad would have been in the same room as the narc-parent was, is - what would have happened then? I'll never know though.

What I have found sad about my luv is that I have felt at least that I thought I knew who he was and what he was about to then find out it is as if he stands with one foot in my team and the other on the narc's. I once asked him "WHO are you? Like really - Who are you?". I have thought is he that insecure that he just plays along, goes along with me, and in the next minute with the narc? Where is his inner strength? Where is he? Where did that secured man go that I thought was my husband. How can he be so different?

I have been told the family thinks he is kind. I have said it is not kindness, not kindness coming from the other parent or himself when allowing abuse to take place without protesting. Than again that requires for him to recognize it as abuse to then protest. And if he ain't - does that make him just as bad as the narc? I have in all honesty thought about if my luv is a narcissist but then again he is so generous but not bragging about it but so sincere in his ways of caring for us, our family, and his empathy that ain't the fake kind, that I have let go of even considering that.

I do see a trait of choosing people who think they are a little superior and just see that as normal. That is where I do not fit in as I don't think I am superior to anyone. What has been strange to me is that my luv can see that trait in the narc-parent but can't with an ex girlfriend in the past before he one day could (on his own, had nothing to do with me).

I have noticed with those who has an attitude as if they are somewhat superior that they are not so strong built from the inside and so even if the narc flatters etc that in one way it is def manipulating it in another and there can be a danger in that.

The scapegoat knows it will get in trouble each and every time but it still stand up for itself.

I have listened in to what has been happening and can tell that the scapegoat still had, has more respect for it's narc-parent than the narc-parent has for the scapegoat and the way the narc-parent has been carrying on I have never seen that in another parent in my entire life, to me it is just a proof of how damaged this parent is, that there is no inner voice to tell it you simply do not talk or do this to your own child (adult or not adult).

Something the narc-parent likes to do and it is so blunt really all of it but somehow those who play a part in it do not see it as clearly as I do and it is that it enhance someone's importance while putting down someone else and then just sit back and enjoy watching hopefully these people have a go at each other or at most hopefully the scapegoat feeling even more left out etc. How can one behave this way to one's own family? It is just a proof of how damaged a narc-person is.

My luv has come around and now see things he did not see the calculation of before, that is the thing, they miss the strategic part of it. I saw the same calculation, planning, strategies with my ex, the psychopath but could then see that the people exposed to this did not see it, and if they saw it they only felt it perhaps 2-3 levels of it and did not understand why they were feeling bad, only that they were.

[Izz]

Hello asearcher

My suggestion is that the constructive way forward is to further and continue strategize in terms of strength with your luv in overcoming the narc. The allies in your lives right now that acknowledge the narc's mistreatment are vital

It's complex to revisit the question why he didn't stand up for you when he should've. Not excusing his behavior. The scapegoat would typically see through the "confusion fog" ahead of time compared to the golden child. Narcs are expert at sowing and spreading certain vicious confusion fogs

This is why I feel sorry for the golden child. The scapegoat albeit get insulted and externally left out, would be given the inner resources for clarity more ahead of time - in comparison. The scapegoat could strategize and make goals with that clarity The golden child would need more grounding and balance and it's good that you're there as that influence

As for me being the goal oriented, goal driven path number 1 person aids in navigating these narc dynamics - and my drive propels me forward at the moment. Some goals I hve - no one else needs to know

Yes or that person or persons will try to take down your goals before you even get that and, or use it as a vulnerability against you so that is really good, I agree. Keep the things that are important to you and the things that are vulnerable to you inside. Do not share and do not look for approval.
He has said that the way he has felt i have expressed myself in those situations, that I seem to have a flow and a purpose and I keep my calm, I don't even raise my voice but I do look into the narcs eyes and I keep looking and I can see just how damaged even the eyes are, that the brain is just - it's damaged, what can I say. I come in the situation as an equal but of course the narc wants and demand to be superior. But I ain't having that.

So my luv has said that it has been very hard for him to tell if he should jump in or not as he has then thought he would make me look like a little girl and as if the situation is too much for me to handle on my own.

What I began to notice would happen is that he would physically do something while me and his narc-parent were in the middle of something. then I noticed my luv would reach out his arm on the top of my chair, the back, upper part so his hand touched, just a little bit, my right shoulder (the one far from him). That signal right there - I realized later - was the first signal, the first sign that he was giving away saying "I'm on your team", I have your back. The very first!

Anyways my luv would tell me while we were in this therapy that some incidents that I would describe that he says that even if I say those times were scary for me - that I did not look scared. I looked angry. Real angry.
That surprised me. Because I was screaming for help and support on the inside while fighting on the outside, I wanted help and support from him.

I have had incidents that are just so beyond ridiculous. One time the narc-parent was staring at me in silence with hate in its eyes while the rest was watching the tele. If I am to adress it in any way, then it just gets up and leave. Acting like a child. When it can't be superior it just goes up and leaves as if it think it is making a stand or something.

The narc-parent is for sure trying to intimidate me. And we all know now that I refuse to be anywhere alone this narc-parent as I don't trust it for a second. I know what it has been up to in the past when there were no witnesses.

I have noticed big time with the other siblings that they wish to show me another part of the family, away from the narc, and that this is not how they behave. Not something they represent.

What I do see a fear about is that none of them seem to be aware of what I am seeing and it is that the narc-grandparent is trying to do the same thing it has done to it's children- now with the grandchildren.

I was appalled the first time I would hear the narc-parent talk behind a grandchild's back. I had never ever heard anything like that. While praising another. It does it with the grown ups and it does it with the grandchildren.

[Izz]

I told him I wa SO SICK of the SICKNESS in his first family and in HIM, the way they talk down on women's looks

Asearcher, believe me, I know the feeling - and it's hard to actually come from a family of which there's narcs that are appearance-obsessed to the extent of talking down not only on women's looks - but going to an even more extreme level. Once a paternal relative of mine was bashed so much (behind her back) by a few maternal members - she was insulted like this "oh see her interests, hobbies and her favorite color, this is why she was unlucky in relationships" (yes that extreme!)

Yes or that person or persons will try to take down your goals before you even get that and, or use it as a vulnerability against you so that is really good, I agree. Keep the things that are important to you and the things that are vulnerable to you inside.

Wise reminder

I understand it is difficult to fathom, seeing these dynamics play out as you were not from his family of origin. I understand how your luv acted might've casted some doubt on to "was I valued in that situation - when it seemed like he didn't step in when i was verbally attacked by the narc?" As I said, there might've been that underlying issues with being a golden child - having had to internalize a "confusion fog" imposed by the narc because narcs (and I mean narcs, cutting across different walks of life and cultures) are experts, masters, the jack of all trades when it comes to things like sowing confusion, sowing discord and triangulation

I understand how it comes out as making one wonder, why did he not step in when was needed. This doesn't necessarily reflect how he values you, as it sounds like he was victimized by the narc in his upbringing too - however this of course does not excuse how he was acting and you were more than justified to bring up those concerns. And upbringing is another complex matter. Especially the looking down at his cell phone part

It's good that you maintained eye contact and put that narc in their place - it was well needed

I hear you about the sucking up part - it's frustrating to see how others suck up

It is good that he would use his body language to show that he is on your team. It is good that he is showing and making those efforts

Things like this, is why as I said - I feel sorry for the golden child (albeit not justifying their actions when they are mistreating) because the scapegoat would get further clarity on what to do, how to act, and able to strengthen investing in a lot of things outside of the narc - much more ahead of time. But it sounds like your luv is emotionally checked out from the narc, disconnected completely from the narc and is on your side. And that you have been the most important influence in his life

About narc-parent talking behind a grandchild's back, while praising another - oh, I know that dynamics so well. This is triangulation, and as I said the master, jack of all trades when it comes to sowing confusion

I repetitively used the word "confusion" because abusive energy leech narcs and confusion intertwine fundamentally together